Push button starter

[70spider]

Ok it seems that my ignition switch is bad and my possible solutions be to purchase the Lada switch or install a switch panel push button starter. This one from Jegs (https://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS+Performance ... RsQAvD_BwE) would be good because it fits perfectly where the previous owner hacked away the center console for a stereo. I know others have done this but they didn't give an explanation on how they did it. So if you know anything on how to accomplish this help.

My understanding of the Fiat ignition switch is:
Terminal Associated wire Function
30/1 Black (from Alternator) 12V when key is in “on” and “start” position
30 Brown (from Starter) 12V when key is in “on” and “start” position
Pink Key “in” indicator light
50 Red (to Starter) 12V “start” position
15 Light Blue/Black 12V to ignition coil in “on” position
Pink 12V to #9 fuse
INT Black Goes to Alternator (Function unknown to me)
Light Blue/Red 12V to #2 fuse
So now the difficult part, where to put the wires?
With my limited knowledge of electrics here is what I think.
The Black from 30/1 goes to the toggle marked ignition then a jumper wire goes to the start button. Jumper wires go from the ignition toggle to the remaining aux toggles. The Brown wire (30) from the starter goes to aux toggle in the first position. Red wire (50) runs from the starter button to the starter with a relay put in. Light Blue/Black wire (15) goes to another aux toggle. Light Blue/Red wire (INT) goes to another aux toggle. Pink wire (15) goes to another aux toggle. Pink wire (30) is for the key in ignition indicator light so I don't think I will need it, unless it also powers something else further down the line. Black wire (INT) is the confusing one for me my wiring diagram indicates it goes to the alternator and to an "Outer lighting 2 position switch". What and where is this switch? I would keep the old ignition switch in for the key lock steering wheel.
This is what I have so far. It probably isn't even close to being right but I think it is a start (no pun intended).

[spider2081]

I know others have done this but they didn't give an explanation on how they did it.

I have not performed a push button mod and am not a fan of modifying a cars wiring form its original configuration. The original wiring was reliable for many years.

You haven't stated how you tested the car to determine the ignition switch is defective.

Does the shiny face of the ignition switch have Sipea stamped into it? If it does it could be the original ignition switch.
If the ignition switch has symbols resembling roman numerals on the shiny face and does not Sipea stamped into it it could be a Lada replacement switch.
I think the brown wire from the starter and the black wire from the alternator are both connecting the battery positive to the ignition switch. These wires have battery voltage on them as long as the battery is connected.
Do you have a wire diagram for your car?

I am of the personal belief its easier to get a car operating correctly with unaltered wiring than it is to modify a non working car to try and get it to properly work.

[70spider]

You haven't stated how you tested the car to determine the ignition switch is defective.

I will try to do that today, weather permitting.

Do you have a wire diagram for your car?

Yes.

Does the shiny face of the ignition switch have Sipea stamped into it?

Yes it is the original switch.
As for monkeying around with the wiring that ship has sailed with the P.O. Besides if I do this I plan on using the same color wires and will simply extend the existing wire making it very easy to go back.
The purpose of the post is to find out the feasibility of it and the how because I do not want to purchase a lada switch if mine is bad.

[18Fiatsandcounting]

What are the symptoms that make you feel like the switch is bad?

What often happens in these old ignition switches is that there is an internal plastic "cam" of sorts that deforms over time and then the contacts don't work any more. The switches can be taken apart and the contacts cleaned, but I have not found a source for that plastic part. I have used a soldering iron to melt and "reshape" the plastic part so that it sorta works again, but it's not a permanent solution. Or, try to find a new ignition switch with better contacts.

Here's the summary of the ignition switch wiring for these earlier cars:
- The brown wire goes to terminal 30 and is connected to the +12V post on the starter motor. So, brown has +12V all the time.

- A black wire does to terminal 30/1 and is connected to the alternator output post. It also has +12V all the time since the alternator is connected to the battery.

- In the Start and On key positions, Terminal 30/1 is connected to Terminal 15 which has a large pink wire connected to the input of Fuse 9 and a blue/black wire to the B+ of the ignition coil.

In the Start position only, Terminal 30 is connected to Terminal 50 which goes to the red wire to the starter motor solenoid, thus cranking the engine.

So, if you have power on the pink and blue/black wires when the key is in the "On" position, then that set of contacts is working. If the engine doesn't crank due to a bad ignition switch, then it's the Terminal 30 to Terminal 50 contacts inside the switch that are likely bad. This would be the jumper you would use for an external start button, although note you still would need to turn the key to "On" and then press the starter button. But, I agree with Spider2081 that it's better to figure out if you can fix or replace the ignition switch.

-Bryan

[70spider]

What are the symptoms that make you feel like the switch is bad?

I described the issue in another post: Mystery loss of electrics.

So, if you have power on the pink and blue/black wires when the key is in the "On" position, then that set of contacts is working.

I get momentary power (1-2 second) on those wires when I turn the key to the "on" position then nothing. No fuses blow. It will crank the starter but again no power to the coil or #9 and #10 fuse circuits. I am going to use a jumper wire to the pink and then to the blue/black wires to a 12v source and see if it "pops" off as before. Then I should know if it doesn't then the issue is in the switch, if it does then it is something else in the line.
As I mentioned earlier posts the previous owner installed an electronic ignition system and hacked up a bunch of wires. The unit melted soon after I got the car. There are several wires that were cut and just hanging around going nowhere, some hot, some not. There is no way I would do a hack job, besides my only other solution, if it is the switch, is risk $200 and buy a "Sipea" switch from overseas.

[70spider]

Update:
I used the jumper wire from 12v to the Pink and blue/black wire from terminal 15 and I have fuel gauge and coil. I then reconnected the wires to the 15 post and tried the key, 1 second of power then nothing. Conclusion?

[spider2081]

Do you have a test light or a volt meter to troubleshoot with?

If you do have you sued it to test for power at the ignition switch terminals with the ignition switch in the "run" position?

I believe it is as common for the push wire terminals to make a poor connection to the ignition switch terminals as it is for the ignition switch itself to have an issue.

[18Fiatsandcounting]

The "input" for Fuse 9 is the large pink wire from terminal 15, and since the inputs of fuses 9 and 10 are connected together inside the fuse box, that means the input for Fuse 10 is the large pink wire as well.

I'd do as Spider2081 suggests, check the terminal connections on the back of the ignition switch, and if that's not the issue, it's likely a problem inside the ignition switch. You can also try wiggling the connections on the back of the ignition switch (leaving the wires) connected, and sometimes that will get it to run intermittently. Not a solution of course.

Safety Tip: Don't leave the coil powered up for long periods of time. It's OK to power it for 10 or 20 seconds or so, but if you go too much longer without the engine running, you risk burning up the coil or the points. Old style points ignitions weren't designed to be left in the "ON" position for too long without the engine running.

-Bryan

[70spider]

Update:
Ok I tested all the circuits and everything is ok past the switch. Funny I just came in to post the updates and read

If you do have you sued it to test for power at the ignition switch terminals with the ignition switch in the "run" position?

I just did the 15 terminal is the culprit. I turn the key in the "on" position and I have 12v for a second or two then nothing. I repeated three times with same results. The others are ok.
So can I draw a conclusion that it is the switch?

[spider2081]

So can I draw a conclusion that it is the switch?

If when you loose power on terminal 15 you still have power on terminal 30/1 then the ignition switch contact is probably an issue.

I would remove the distributor cap and hold the points open by sticking a piece of paper or thin cardboard between them. Redo the test, If terminal 15 has voltage when the points are open and the key is in the "run" position and then with the points closed terminal 15 looses voltage that indicates a bad contact. Could be the wire's connection to the switch or the switch itself.

[70spider]

If when you loose power on terminal 15 you still have power on terminal 30/1 then the ignition switch contact is probably an issue.

I have power at the INT terminal but not 15, I didn't test 30/1 or 30. I assumed if INT was getting power they were hot.

I would remove the distributor cap and hold the points open by sticking a piece of paper or thin cardboard between them.

Can't do that I have a Pertronix in it, tehe.
Thanks for all the help. I don't think I want to risk buying a Sipea switch from overseas so I'll figure something out.

[dinghyguy]

The sipea switches can be taken apart and if the plastic is not melted, the contacts can be cleaned and the switch reassembled and reused. There are some instructions on Mira on how to do it carefully. I am currently doing the third one for a friend of mine with three cars in the family, and i have done both of mine as well as preventative maintenance.

Then you can install a set of relays than take almost all the load off the switch and you will be good for the future.

cheers
dinghyguy

[spider2081]

I have power at the INT terminal but not 15, I didn't test 30/1 or 30. I assumed if INT was getting power they were hot.

I think inside the ignition switch there are 3 sets of contacts. 30 makes to 50 when the key is in the "start" position 30 makes to "INT" in the "run" position and 30/1 makes to 15 in the "start" and the "run" position. The black wire (30/1) powers the ignition coil from ignition switch terminal 15 when the key is in the "start" and "run" positions,through a light blue/black wire.
So there is a slight possibility the issue is with the black wire feeding battery voltage to the ignition ignition switch. So I would test 30/1 when the key is in the "run" position to be sure the voltage into the ignition switch is present when the switch is on.

[70spider]

The sipea switches can be taken apart and if the plastic is not melted, the contacts can be cleaned and the switch reassembled and reused.

I have read through it several times it may be an option but seems a bit difficult.

So there is a slight possibility the issue is with the black wire feeding battery voltage to the ignition ignition switch. So I would test 30/1 when the key is in the "run" position to be sure the voltage into the ignition switch is present when the switch is on.

Tomorrow. Thanks

[spider2081]

I have read through it several times it may be an option but seems a bit difficult.

There are more than one versions of the Sipea ignition switch. I have not seen a write up on servicing the early version of the ignition switch that would have been installed by Fiat at time of manufacture of your car. Byran's post about the switch is what I would expect to be in your Spider.