Second Engine Build, Raising CR

[RRoller123]

So, I thought I would document somewhat this project to raise the stock 8.1/1 CR on my 2L engine, to roughly 9.8/1.

The first steps have been the gathering of parts, and working on pulling the existing ("primary") engine. The primary engine has a GRS, 274FI cams from Mark, adjustable cam wheels, lightened flywheel from Mark, aluminum radiator and large valve head from AR, and a Computronix ignition unit. Adding 4mm domed pistons from Csaba at AR, new water pump, new O2 sensor, etc. Looking for a local shop to do the work, including balancing it all. There are two good shops in my immediate area that do this all day long on big American V8's for the hobby car community here. But as I give it some thought, it might make sense to ship it out to a Fiat specialist.

I have a consistent misfire across all cylinders, all speeds, that I have been trying to diagnose. So far it points to the Computronix trigger unit as the culprit, especially as everything in this teardown so far looks really good. Plugs good, compression between 135-140 all cylinders. Head, Intake and Exhaust gaskets all good, very little carbon, only very minor oil or coolant leaks. Valve timing and Ignition timing good, valve gaps good.

I did find two things of interest. The intake manifold and exhaust manifold nuts were tight, but not as tight as I expected, came off easily. I had set them to torque specs, but don't remember what loctite I used. And the Injector number 3 may not be fully seated, it looks like I cut the hose just a little bit short and it might be holding the injector out from full seating? You can take a look at the pictures and tell me what you think?

The plan is to pull this block and transmission, maybe this weekend, carefully inspect it and decide whether to upgrade either it or the second engine block that I have up on the stand already. The mechanic who did the clutch and flywheel install said there is likely a bad input shaft bearing on the gearbox. I drive so few miles and have let it go so long that it may be pooched and I might need to source a new gearbox, due to a perished housing. We will see.

Anyway here are the pictures so far. In no particular order, does the injector for #3 show clearly as not fully seated?

Pete

[SteinOnkel]

Injector seating looks fine to me.

I would pull them all out and get them cleaned and flow tested. Maybe one of them is just gummed up, causing the misfire.

[RRoller123]

Bought a new set, they will be going in! With all that trouble to remove and rebuild the whole thing, I will try a new set. I had these cleaned about 9 years ago. They appear original, so they are 40 years old, and since they are a crimped design, can't really be fully rebuilt, just a new screen and cleaning. Which is fine, but after 40 years, it is time for a new set. I also have another set, I believe also Bosch, with rail, that came with my second engine, an 82.

[joelittel]

You’re going to love the new engine.

Did you say the 274 cams were going into the new build as well? With the compression increase 285 cams (also Mark’s) or 80/40 elsewhere are not outside of the scope of possibility.

I have roughly the same compression you are aiming for and Mark’s reground 285v cams in my car. Other than a slightly higher idle (it likes to sit at 1100 rpms until the engine is hot and then drops down a little) it’s a very easy to manage setup.

Just a thought

[RRoller123]

Yes, the 274 cams are already in the car, and it is exactly as you indicated you are experiencing. It idles high, like 1100 (on the roopumeter) then settles down a little after warm. Between the cams, flywheel and large valve head, it has been pretty lively, but I think this CR increase will really "wake it up" as I have been told.

The biggest change I noticed with the present mods to date has been the lower end power increase. Although the car is noticeably faster, it is no rocket now. But it is able to climb up long, steep hills much more easily, without a downshift, and even accelerate in 4th or 5th at times while climbing. I have cut a lot of pounds out of the overall weight of the car, (at least 5%, maybe more) so that helps too.

[joelittel]

Looking forward to reading about this as you progress.

As you may recall, I put my crank bearings in incorrectly and had to build my engine twice. Funny now, but heartbreaking when it happened. Point is, don’t rush, double check and take detailed notes. Without being able to look back at my notes I wouldn’t have known what I did wrong and would probably have started over from scratch.

I know you are a detail oriented kind of guy but it’s still worth mentioning.

If you don’t already have one, consider adding an oil pressure gauge. Had I not had one I never would have known I had a problem until the engine was ruined. As it turned out I saw the pressure drop, heard an unusual noise and immediately shut the car off. Who knows how close I came to rendering my engine useless but it was the aftermarket oil pressure gauge that gave me the critical early warning.

[RRoller123]

Thanks Joe. I do have a dual port sender and a gauge, 2 ports so that the dash oil light can still function along with the gauge. I will install the port and gauge with this build. Good idea. Also thinking I need an Altimeter and a Barometer. along with an AFR gauge.

I plan on having a machine shop do the work, probably a cleaning, inspection, magnaflux if it seems needed, line bore, hone the cylinders, inspect and clean up the crank, choose the bearings and then install the new pistons etc; and dynamically balance the entire assy. Only want to do this once. At 65 years old, this is it. Last one.

After this project, I plan nothing else other than to maintain and enjoy using it for many years to come. Although that in itself takes a lot of time and attention!

[wizard124]

RRoller,
I'll follow along. Great that someone is willing to take the lead to increase performance on a FI 2 litre. I haven't come across much on this. Will you run it on a dyno once you have it dialed in?

I'm still in California and need mine to pass smog check every 2 years. I suspect high compression would knock emissions out of set limits.

[RRoller123]

I won't dyno it after it is done, I am frankly not that interested, just want to wake it up a bit more. This will be the last thing I do to the car other than ongoing maintenance. I am getting way too long in the tooth to be doing this stuff much longer. To date: It has a lightened flywheel, large valve ported head, 274FI street cams, aluminum adj cam wheels, GRS, lighter alum radiator, flow through cat, widened track by 30mm on all 4 of the 14" wheels, and a bad Computronics that I am stuck with, can't repair or have repaired, and am therefore not happy.

We pulled the engine remnants yesterday, came out really easily. I will post some pictures, but here is a summary of the steps that we found made the entire process pretty easy. I probably missed a few things, but this is the general approach that made this somewhat easier, I think.

1.) Removed hood, drained coolant, removed radiator. Removed Alternator and bracket. Removed plugs, ignition wires, AFM, etc. All that stuff.
2.) Disconnected gas lines and plugged, disconnected exhaust manifold AT THE HEAD, etc. Removed FI system (NOT Intake manifold) and the top end entirely, as a unit, head and cam boxes attached. A lot easier than it sounds. Just take care for your back. It is not that heavy, but it could hurt your back from the leaning over fer sher.
3.) Disconnect everything you can, clutch cable, speedo, etc from the transmission.
4.) With the top end out, the dreaded top bolt on the starter is easy. Get at it from ABOVE. Out came the starter.
5.) Disconnected driveshaft from Diff, removed support bar for pillow bearing, pulled driveshaft out of trans in one piece. The emergency brake cable was NOT touched.
6.) Unbolted triangle cover below shifter, remove retaining nut, and lifted the entire shifter out of the car. NO fooling around with any interior components, gear shift extension, console, nothing.
7.) Unbolted transmission at bell housing, supported transmission a with floor jack and bottle jack and pulled it back a few inches and lowered to floor. Rear backup light switch was forgotten about, but it fortunately disconnected itself with no apparent damage.
8.) So all that was left at this point was the block sitting in there on the motor mounts. Removed top nuts on the motor mounts.
9.) Engine will NOT lift off, the motor mounts angle inwards and the engine hangs up on the mount studs. Removed ONE motor mount from below, access to nut through cross member.
10.) Lifted engine out with an overhead electric winch contraption. Chain rated at over 5000 pounds, winch at over 1300 pounds.

It is a lot of work, took a long time, but I tend proceed (too) slowly and safely, do only a little at a time, and I spend a lot of time just staring at it...

It is not that hard overall, just really tedious. It is amazing how much has to be done to remove and change pistons.

Now to find a shop to do the lower end and fit the pistons.

[RRoller123]

Here are a few pics from our day yesterday. Cold up here on the North Atlantic, but overall, we have had a really mild Winter. It would be unbearable doing this work during a normal Winter here on the Cape Cod Canal. I am blessed to have found and purchased a house that my dear wife loves, that is essentially a 3000 sq-ft garage with a small house attached.

Have contemplated putting a lift in, but the years are just beyond me to do it now. Ten years ago? Sure... We have a 15 foot wide, 15 foot high, by 50 foot deep bay, that was used by the prior owner to service his oil delivery trucks. It has a beautiful service pit at the far end, but it is too wide for any of my cars! And anyway these pits are illegal now, so I am going to fill it in this Spring and gain some easier to use floor space.

The incomparable Tim Aucella at the left.





Leave the head gasket on the top of the block to protect the surface!

[tima01864]

One more Spider to go. With more experience under the hat.

[18Fiatsandcounting]

Gosh, how I envy your hoist and garage setup. For all the Fiat engines that I've pulled, the process was always: 1) wrap a rope around the engine, 2) stand with feet firmly planted on the fenders on either side of the engine bay, 3) grab hold of said rope, 4) do a deadlift, 5) place engine on front crossmember just in front of radiator, 6) breathe, and 7) somehow figure out how to next get the engine safely resting on the ground.

Well done, mates!

-Bryan

[SteinOnkel]

Here's how us VW guys do it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBVmXukx_Gk



Great progress pics. Looks like you guys had a fun (albeit cold) and productive wrenching session.

[RRoller123]

Heading down to Danny's today to pick up my transmission, on time and on budget! Thanks Danny. Tim's Transmission and the two short blocks next! We hope to be back on the road by Car Season fer sher.

I am dropping off a lightened crank pulley for Danny to use in the short block build. This one came from AR and looks to be really well made. Light as a feather, and marked very precisely with timing advance marks in white on the basic black. Looking forward to seeing how it helps, although I realize that it will obviously be masked by the concurrent CR upgrade. So I won't be able to testify as to its performance add by itself, unfortunately.

[narfire]

I see you have the adjustable cam wheels. Great stuff. Such a difference when the engine is degreed in properly with new cams.
I have Mark's cams in my 80 with a degreed in engine. No neck snapping acceleration, but a good difference in power.
Been a long time since I've pulled an engine, pics brought back memories and a smile to my face. Hope I'm not jinxed now...