Head Gasket Replacement

[wetminkey]

Time to start this thread,...
My '79 2000cc Spider has a slight leak into #3,...I suspect my previous use of KW Copper Coat. We'll see, huh?!
Parts arrived today, so the car is now minus the hood, coolant, all of the hoses and fan, and plastic timing belt cover.
I can foresee, right now, that I'm going to need to figure out a good way to lock this crankshaft, so that I can remove the crankshaft pulley. It's an automatic.
I'm just past firing of #4, so I'll back it up just a 'smidge', and rotate fwd to TDC #4, so that my cam gear holes align with the pointers. Then I can pull the distributor and get to work pulling the head.
Locking the crank,...ideas?
Thanks! Todd.
P.S. HAPPY 4TH! Stay safe!

[18Fiatsandcounting]

Crankshaft and cam timing don't really matter when you're pulling off the timing belt, so I wouldn't worry about lining things up at this stage. Just remove the plastic timing belt cover and radiator hoses that are in the way, loosen the timing belt tensioners nuts (two, once in the center and one off to the side), and pull that puppy off. Of course, when putting on the new timing belt, getting the timing right will matter, but we can walk you through that.

Just one question: Why do you want to remove the crankshaft pulley? I have never had to do that to replace a timing belt (as part of removing and replacing the cylinder head), and I've done it only once or twice when totally rebuilding the engine with the crankshaft removed.

-Bryan

[wetminkey]

Geeze, Bryan, how does that method of your's work,...?

[focodave]

Todd,

A chain wrench wrapped around the pulley is the best way to do it, to allow you to keep the crank from turning while you loosen the nut.
Since you have an automatic trans, the chain wrench is the most practical way.
I have a 5-speed manual gearbox car, so I have always been able to put the car in 5th gear, chock the wheels, and loosen the nut with no problems.
You obviously don't have that luxury.

Dave

[wetminkey]

Thanks, Dave! You obviously understand why I mention that it's an auto-tranny,...
I've got a lovely chain wrench that I'll put to work,...I think your's is the best suggestion that I've heard. I'll make a note in the shop manual for a future owner/mechanic,...
Have a great 4th and stay safe!
Todd.

[18Fiatsandcounting]

Todd, yes, Happy 4th of July! Well, as some mechanics have been heard to say, "I've never seen one quite like yours before..." I have to admit, I have never had a Fiat engine that has that black shield (metal? plastic?) going up through the center of your photo, with one attachment point being one of the water pump bolts. Then again, I've never had an automatic transmission Fiat.

Based on what you've showed me, you may indeed have to remove the crankshaft pulley, and as Dave points out, a chain wrench is likely your best bet. Or an air driven impact wrench, but I think it would have to be "sideways acting" as you likely can't get a regular impact wrench in there with the body (frame) parts in front of the engine. Those nuts can be pretty tight, although with manual transmission cars, I have done as Dave suggests and put it in gear with the brakes on and just whaled on that nut with a breaker bar.

-Bryan

[geospider]

Well, Todd, I see you are at least elbow deep in this project now.
Good luck. I would leave that black cover off when putting everything back together. I believe others who have still had this on, take it off when doing the belt. Where are you timing marks? the pointer on mine '79 5 sp, has 2 bolts holding it. I take one off and loosen the other to sneak the timing belt on/off.

did you get head bolts or the studs?

Geo

[wetminkey]

Well,...I had to bust out the tractor tools. But that's the secret,...
My Vice-Grip chain wrench, 1" drive ratchet, and 1 1/2" socket made 'easy' work out of loosening the pulley nut:

This is the way to deal with the crankshaft pulley nut!!
BTW, it's ALL factory Fiat from 1979! My Fiat shop manual covers 1975 - 1982, and it mentions no exceptions, so I would assume that all of these engines came from the factory with metal timing belt shields. Lower, upper left and upper right,...in addition to the large, front shield (my original is yellow plastic).
I've added TDC timing marks to my lower shield,...the one that you guys want me to throw away. Now that I know what I need to get this dis-assembled, I think I'll re-install my factory shields. Shop manual goes with the car,...it has ALL of the notes on how to do this easily (now)! And I'll add a note about searching fiatspider.com! Without these shields, don't you guys get all kinds of road crap/dirt on your timing belt and drive mechanism?!
How about those grease-pencil alignment marks? Idiot proof!
Also a lot of little stuff today,...draining/flushing the block and radiator, cleaning gasket surfaces, straightening metal shields, practice run removing/installing the old belt, etc,...
I think I'll buy a new tap to chase the holes, and wire brush my original head bolts,...they only get 61 ftlbs.
Happy Independence Day, everyone!
Todd.

[18Fiatsandcounting]

Wetminkey, you are The Man! As to the question you allude to, I removed the timing covers on all of my Fiats and never had a problem. I think they are there more to protect your fingers, and to keep oil off the belt, than to protect the belt from debris thrown up from the underside of the car, but of course, as soon as I say that, someone will have an issue with an errant rock that did them in.

Without the timing covers, I can usually replace a timing belt in under 15 minutes:
1. Loosen radiator cap, open radiator drain valve and drain out about 3 cups of coolant.
2. Remove upper radiator hose (but only at thermostat housing).
3. Loosen 17 mm and 13 mm nuts on timing belt tensioner.
4. Push against tensioner with palm of hand and slip belt off of exhaust cam pulley, then intake cam, then auxiliary cam, then crankshaft pulley.
5. Install new timing belt, being careful not to move any pulleys. Save the exhaust cam pulley for last.
6. Using a large screwdriver, pull tensioner so that belt is tight all around, and then tighten tensioner bolts.
7. Check alignment on cams.
8. Reinstall upper radiator hose at thermostat connection and add drained coolant back into radiator. Tighten radiator cap.
8. Fire that bad boy up, and when all is good, quaff a beer. When all is not good, have two beers...
9. Look at clock. Yep, all good, and under 15 minutes.

-Bryan

[wetminkey]

Yeah! I'll bet,...without those covers, I could see replacement going quickly!
It seems to me that MOST owners/mechanics have removed these shields long ago,...so I do need to consider that option seriously. Thanks.
My back and hands are telling me, today, that I must be elbow deep in some damn mechanical project again! Breakfast of champions: Tylenol.
I need to ask what you guys seal,...and with what kind of sealer:
Coolant drain bolt on right side block
Intake manifold gasket
Head gasket (I hear, no sealant. yes?)
Exhaust manifold gasket (I've never sealed one, but, I'll ask while I'm at it,...)
Water pump gaskets (I expect to use RTV silicone)
And I know that the head bolts require sealant, do any of the other bolts on the engine require sealer (enter an oil, or coolant passage,...)?
Thank you!
Todd.

[dinghyguy]

i would use a Permatex product on all the gaskets that seal either oil or the water. I have found their products have always worked well for me. On my intake i only applied the sealant around the water passages, thinly, assuming the gasket will do most of the work elsewhere. I used the same stuff on the front water pipe connection on the pipe that runs along under the exhaust header. So far no problems.

So, one question......now that you have the guards and some of the pulleys off are you going to paint them all before you reinstall? as well you can paint your rad fan assembly if it needs it...…
Also any seals exposed that need replacement (i doubt it given your relatively recent work...but thought i would ask)

And i covet your chain wrench!

cheers
dinghyguy

[wetminkey]

Irwin Vise-Grip chain wrench. I think NAPA has them,...!
As much as I love them (!!), I think I'm going to retire my metal timing belt shields,...I've even found a spot for timing marks on the side of the engine's front, lower cover.

Gosh,...my poor car. It was running just the day before yesterday,...

As I removed head bolts, I found what I think was the problem. They broke loose OK (maybe a little short of 61ftlbs,...?) but then they did not loosen like they should, and were hard to pull from there holes,...and, holy moley!

Looked more like plumbers putty than head bolt sealer!! I doubt that head bolt torques were ever close to proper.
So, OBVIOUSLY, I need to know what you guys seal head bolt threads with! Sounds like dinghyguy uses Permatex,...but I 'think' that's what I used 15 years ago. Permatex high temp thread sealant. I could be wrong,...maybe I used plumber's putty!
Inside, I found just what I expected,...#3 was moist with coolant. Amazing amount of crap burnt onto the flat surface of #3's exhaust valve! Everything on the lower side looks good, and the upper cylinders/valves look good. So probably no head gasket failure.
I've got a 10mm x 1.25 tap coming to chase all of the head bolt threads. And after a lacquer thinner soak, and wire brush, all of my original head bolts are just like new.
Been cleaning gasket surfaces all day,...

[geospider]

wow, interesting looking head bolts.

Gasket sealer. I use it on the water pump, the coolant tube mentioned and nowhere else.
intake, exhaust and head gasket all dry.

sealer for bolts: I used Permatex thread sealer: white tube, red writing. head bolts and exhaust man studs/bolt. Had leak at one of these.
speaking of leaks: a local machine shop, who did a great job on the head, used silicone sealer with the cambox gaskets: caused a leak and I had to replace with new. Just a cautionary tale for those who remember the old days with V8s and using sealer everywhere..

Glad you are thread chasing the head. but using the old bolts? how old? I have always used new bolts or studs when doing a head. unless unusual circumstances.

Looks like you have a great process for the crank pully, but easier next time you need a timing belt to not have that lower guard on.

with the pulley off; a good time to check the front seal.

all the thoughts I have on a Friday eve

Geo

[ORFORD2004]

ARP stud for your head and no more problems from there.

[wetminkey]

This engine is absolutely stock (and auto tranny!), so I doubt that I'd need studs,...
Head bolt torque is only 61ftlbs, so I'd guess that these M10 x 1.25s are good for a long time! My Mustang head bolt torque is 90ftlbs,...THOSE you replace each time for sure!! Only reason to replace these would be if they were damaged.
This rebuilt short block has less than 1000 miles on it, as does the rebuilt cams/head. Sealing the head has been an issue for a long time, but with that crap dragging on the head bolt threads as they are torqued! I can understand why the head gasket leaked,...never torqued down fully, and could not be re-torqued properly. I suspect that I did a crappy job, in a rushed manner,...
Now, all gasket surfaces are CLEAN.

Head surfaces are CLEAN (top of #4 and #1, too! Like my plastic plugs for the oil risers?).

Bolts are CLEAN. In fact, pretty.

I'll get some new Permatex and start re-assembly as soon as the tap gets here,...
After cleaning the block surface, I'll need to try to flush the crap that fell into the coolant chambers out of the right side block drain,...probably after I put it all back together.
Time to call it a day,...and for more Tylenol.
Todd.