Fuel Injection Intake Manifold Options?

[Sparky]

I'm looking to convert my '78 1.8L Spider to fuel injection and I've sorted out a few options.
The easiest (to find) intake option is the stock '80-85 manifold. The downsides are that it runs the inlet piping over the engine which seems awkward and it has some old fashioned injectors which could make sizing and replacements difficult.

Another option is the 8v Lancia Integral intake, this uses modern (late 80's to '00's) injectors. This intake points the throttle body towards the front of the car, but angled slightly towards the radiator.

The last option I've been looking into is the home-built approach where I either weld or cast a manifold and fit aftermarket or motorcycle itb's. This last option is definitely the most work, but I do have some large scale 3d printers so I can print out a manifold from PLA and essentially do a lost wax casting... Or I could machine a couple plates and weld tubing to create something. Honda CBR600RR Throttle bodies can be had with injectors for next to nothing and feature about 38mm plates, not far off the 35mm intake ports on the head...

I'd love to hear about others experience? Has anyone used a Lancia 8v intake before? How close to ideal is the factory Fiat intake?

[OttawaTom]

Just a thought...

Have you considered modifying a single plane carb intake to take injectors, then using the bottom end of a cheap Chinese 34ADF for throttles?

You'd still have to fabricate some sort of air cleaner, but it wouldn't be as hard as a full-custom manifold.

Regardless, please post your progress on this project!

-Tom

[burgandy81]

ITB's !!! Just for the sound! If you are going to be normally aspirated, the bike TB would be great.

I assume you will be using MS or other aftermarket ECU?



I have a Lancia intake on my car. A few details here http://t124.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=7405

The fit is OK but not perfect. I went for the Lancia intake as I live in a fantasy world where I will have time to eventually finish my turbo project.

Feel free to ask questions.

[Sparky]

Hey Burgandy, your posts and pictures are a great, thank you.
It's been a few years since I last built cars with stand alone excuse. My last megasquirt was in '06,so I'm assuming the microsquirt v3 is a lot more polished & documented.

I picked up a set of the bike itb's for $35, but a Lancia intake would be easier to get up and running.

Regarding the idea of modding a single plane and defunct carbon, I just can't see that having the right sort flow to make the process worthwhile.

[131]

The integrale manifold fouls the throttlebody on the cam gear, requiring modification. A manifold from a Thema doesn't angle inwards, much easier fitment.

[kmead]

Different injectors can be installed in a Fiat manifold so that could improve your choices for the future.

Consider that the Fiat manifold is modular, one could easily modify it to move the intake to the front or even to the opposite side. Some judicious welding would allow you to move the intake air towards the front. A short elbow to an air cleaner would get cold air direct from the front alongside the radiator.

Another alternative would be to get an IDF manifold and either get IDF type throttle bodies or adapt motorcycle throttle bodies to the IDF manifold.

In any case, you will need engine management to run it all with Megasquirt being the likely solution, though you could likely make Microsquirt work well enough.

[Sparky]

Different injectors can be installed in a Fiat manifold so that could improve your choices for the future.

Consider that the Fiat manifold is modular, one could easily modify it to move the intake to the front or even to the opposite side. Some judicious welding would allow you to move the intake air towards the front. A short elbow to an air cleaner would get cold air direct from the front alongside the radiator.

The modular aspect is a good point. The top/cap would fit in my mill's work envelope. It's the odd injectors I'm not sure about.

Another alternative would be to get an IDF manifold and either get IDF type throttle bodies or adapt motorcycle throttle bodies to the IDF manifold.

Yeah, there's all the IDF carb manifolds and I found Allison's had one designed for IDF throttle bodies (less of a bend) that I'm guessing offers more room for horns/filters and better flow? Details seem pretty scarce and it looks like it may have been removed from their website.
There's lots of IDF style throttle bodies coming out of China for relatively cheap. Then there's also the more professional sources for more $$. Part of getting a decent idle and driveability is having appropriate sized injectors with a good spray pattern; those 1600cc units on the cheap kits would likely make tuning a nightmare.

In any case, you will need engine management to run it all with Megasquirt being the likely solution, though you could likely make Microsquirt work well enough.

I've used Megasquirts before, but I'm planning to use the Microsquirt this time around. I really like that the whole case is potted and uses a single weatherproof connector. It would be nice to have sequential fuel injection, but 2 batch fire circuits should work fine, same with the wasted spark ignition.

[85redpini]

I'm looking to convert my '78 1.8L Spider to fuel injection and I've sorted out a few options.
The easiest (to find) intake option is the stock '80-85 manifold. The downsides are that it runs the inlet piping over the engine which seems awkward and it has some old fashioned injectors which could make sizing and replacements difficult.

Another option is the 8v Lancia Integral intake, this uses modern (late 80's to '00's) injectors. This intake points the throttle body towards the front of the car, but angled slightly towards the radiator.

The last option I've been looking into is the home-built approach where I either weld or cast a manifold and fit aftermarket or motorcycle itb's. This last option is definitely the most work, but I do have some large scale 3d printers so I can print out a manifold from PLA and essentially do a lost wax casting... Or I could machine a couple plates and weld tubing to create something. Honda CBR600RR Throttle bodies can be had with injectors for next to nothing and feature about 38mm plates, not far off the 35mm intake ports on the head...

I'd love to hear about others experience? Has anyone used a Lancia 8v intake before? How close to ideal is the factory Fiat intake?

I have a bare fi intake manifold

[grrrdot]

All good options discussed!
I've done two different megasquirt installs both with the stock intake. For the higher performance engine I used some Ford Motorsports injectors that had a high flow rate and fit the Fiat manifold. I think they were early 2000's Mustang injectors... I might be able to dig up details if you want.

I don't remember reading what your target build was but if its normally aspirated all out performance you might want to consider where you want your power band and the engine airflow requirements. Then you can calculate out the best runner length/diameter and necessary injector size.

-G

[Sparky]

I've done two different megasquirt installs both with the stock intake. For the higher performance engine I used some Ford Motorsports injectors that had a high flow rate and fit the Fiat manifold. I think they were early 2000's Mustang injectors... I might be able to dig up details if you want.

Upgraded injector details would make the oem manifold a lot more appealing. Last time I dealt with injectors like on the Fiat was when I was working at an Alfa race shop and we typically just sent those out for service because they were supposedly expensive/hard to come by. If a good deal on a complete stock intake comes up, I might go that route and shelve the ITB idea for a bit.

I don't remember reading what your target build was but if its normally aspirated all out performance you might want to consider where you want your power band and the engine airflow requirements. Then you can calculate out the best runner length/diameter and necessary injector size.

I did pick up those cheap bike throttle bodies. At 38mm I think they're well sized for a ~150+hp engine build. My goal is to get the current (relatively stock) motor running on the FI system, then rebuild my other 1800 with some higher compression pistons and the 82/42 cams the PO had bought. One of the cars came with an IAP header, 2 1/4" exhaust, and some other bits. It's going to be a weekend street-car, so it's got to be able to cruise at normal rpm's, but I'm hoping to get on the powerband from around 4k-7k (or however far I can safely go).

[joelittel]

I've got a near new thema manifold that I've been saving for a future build.

I've had it for a few years and done nothing with it so if anyone is interested let me know and I'll post some pictures.

It's a really cool piece of kit and I'd rather see someone make something of it than keep it on my shelf.

[grrrdot]

Upgraded injector details would make the oem manifold a lot more appealing. Last time I dealt with injectors like on the Fiat was when I was working at an Alfa race shop and we typically just sent those out for service because they were supposedly expensive/hard to come by. If a good deal on a complete stock intake comes up, I might go that route and shelve the ITB idea for a bit.

OK, went looking but cant seem to find any of my pictures of the injectors mounted. I used the redtop M-9593-B302 AKA Ford Racing 30# EV1 injectors. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/fms-m-9593-b302
I ended up splitting the order for eight with a guy Marko over in Europe who was rally racing 131s. They can deliver a lot of fuel, but worked great with my street-able 2.0L. Since they are high impedance injectors I could use the Megasquirt v1.1 without a flyback board, which was nice.
To install in the stock manifold; I trimmed some of the plastic off the fuel-in side of the injector then slipped the hose w/clamp from the stock fuel rail over the exposed metal tube. On the fuel-out side I trimmed down the plastic pintle cap and used the Fiat injector seals. The injectors were held in place with the Fiat hold-downs. All of it sealed up fine.
That was a fun car to drive... 131 trans, lots of torque... I ended up selling off the car body to a guy who raced Sedans up in Canada and then slowly got rid of all the engine bits over the years.

I did pick up those cheap bike throttle bodies. At 38mm I think they're well sized for a ~150+hp engine build. My goal is to get the current (relatively stock) motor running on the FI system, then rebuild my other 1800 with some higher compression pistons and the 82/42 cams the PO had bought. One of the cars came with an IAP header, 2 1/4" exhaust, and some other bits. It's going to be a weekend street-car, so it's got to be able to cruise at normal rpm's, but I'm hoping to get on the powerband from around 4k-7k (or however far I can safely go).

Sounds like fun! ITBs should sound great. As you dial in there there are lots of calculators out there like this one: http://www.wallaceracing.com/intake-runner-length.php To help in sorting out what intake configuration might work best for you.

[Sparky]

OK, went looking but cant seem to find any of my pictures of the injectors mounted. I used the redtop M-9593-B302 AKA Ford Racing 30# EV1 injectors. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/fms-m-9593-b302
I ended up splitting the order for eight with a guy Marko over in Europe who was rally racing 131s. They can deliver a lot of fuel, but worked great with my street-able 2.0L. Since they are high impedance injectors I could use the Megasquirt v1.1 without a flyback board, which was nice.
To install in the stock manifold; I trimmed some of the plastic off the fuel-in side of the injector then slipped the hose w/clamp from the stock fuel rail over the exposed metal tube. On the fuel-out side I trimmed down the plastic pintle cap and used the Fiat injector seals. The injectors were held in place with the Fiat hold-downs. All of it sealed up fine.
That was a fun car to drive... 131 trans, lots of torque... I ended up selling off the car body to a guy who raced Sedans up in Canada and then slowly got rid of all the engine bits over the years.

There's the sort of detail needed to make it all work! 30# injectors is right about what I had come up with using a great excel spreadsheet I found. I'm sure 160hp might be a bit over-optimistic, but I've seen claims of shops offering streetable 170hp 2.0L Spider engines that're using the stock FI manifold... I'm not entirely sure about the input boxes for alternating vs. simultaneous injection pulses or the injections per cycle. The microsquirt on a 4cyl is usually wired with 2 circuits of 2 injectors, I'm assuming they're fired alternating like the ignition (wasted spark) circuit...
My calc settings

Sounds like fun! ITBs should sound great. As you dial in there there are lots of calculators out there like this one: http://www.wallaceracing.com/intake-runner-length.php To help in sorting out what intake configuration might work best for you.

That Wallace Racing site has a ton of great calculators, here I thought I'd have to dig out my old engineering textbooks.

I worked out a deal with Joe for the Lancia Thema intake so I'm going to do some analysis on it and use it at least initially to get my EFI system up and running. I'll post up all the details and dimensions when it arrives. I'm really interested in finding out what it's runner dimensions, volume, and TB inlet look like.

[Hjulenx]

I actually used IDF style injectors with micro squirt for awhile on my '81. I ended up removing them and putting the stock manifold back on because other obligations meant I didn't have the time to tune it properly.

I still have the manifolds, itbs, fuel rail ect. Which I would sell. I will post pictures if interested.

[ORFORD2004]