measuring camber

[phaetn]

How do I measure camber using an old-school method? No computers or an alignment shop for me as they have screwed it up twice. I'll post details later, but on Saturday I had a critical event.

On Friday I picked up the car after taking it back to a garage to re-do the alignment that was never properly done last December after I had new control arms and lowering springs installed. On Saturday morning I went test the brakes at a stop sign and heard a "crack!" that was very worrying and the steering wheel switched position. I thought maybe a weld for the lower mounting point of the damper had let go. I looked under the car but they were still on.

I got it home and lifted the car and saw that the retaining nut for the forward left bolt protruding from the crossmember had let go and all shims lost. The lower control arm was held on only by the aft bolt. Yikes! The forward bolt was totally stripped.

I cursed the garage that had shimmed the control arms and put on the nut with basically no thread sticking through. I took it all apart myself on Sunday. I have new longer bolts and will fix it myself this time. The fore one is easy to get at (the head is exposed) while the aft one is very tricky as it is within the crossmember and tack welded in place.

Now I just want to know how to appropriately measure the angle for the camber. The shop manual says 3°30' +/- 30'. How did they do it beyond just an eyeball? Do I need a plumb line or something?

Thanks and cheers,
phaetn
(I'll post pics of the saga and damage later)
(Edited for typos and corrected camber value)

[RRoller123]

I had thought about doing this with my little (obsolete, dead battery now) IPod. Added a $1 leveling app that turns the little device into an accurate carpenter's level. Cheap app has zeroing and delta functions, digital angle reading, bubble if you want it, etc. Make a small piece of wood that will stretch across the wheel rim from top to bottom and clear the lugs and center cap etc. Make sure the car is on very level ground and set the IPod across the wood block after calibrating vertical with a good level, and viola! I think this would produce remarkably accurate results.

[phaetn]

what a great idea!

I love this forum!!!

Tnx, Pete!

[v6spider]

A protractor level is what I use.. It measures in degrees and is super accurate and cheap.. Typically used to measure pinion angles in race cars.. I think I paid $20 for mine through jegs..


Rob

[vandor]

I use a digital level. Of course the surface you are working on has to be level as well.

[phaetn]

Tnx gents.

It's been an unholy mess and I had to take off the lower control arm in order to install longer bolts through the cross member. It took a lot of work, but now I think I'm done and I've got lots more thread in order to add even more shims if need be.

Now I'm wondering about the other side... Do I tackle that or leave well enough alone? The tricky bit is dislodging the aft cross-member to control arm bolt. It's tack welded and there's no way to get a cold-chisel in there...

Cheers,
phaetn

[azruss]

the cross-member studs for the lower A-arm have very find threads and can strip easily. The alignment shop may have tightened them correctly but they worked loose because of worn threads. I double nutted mine as all the threads past the bolts were in good shape.

[bluespider262]

Tnx gents.

It's been an unholy mess and I had to take off the lower control arm in order to install longer bolts through the cross member. It took a lot of work, but now I think I'm done and I've got lots more thread in order to add even more shims if need be.

Now I'm wondering about the other side... Do I tackle that or leave well enough alone? The tricky bit is dislodging the aft cross-member to control arm bolt. It's tack welded and there's no way to get a cold-chisel in there...

Cheers,
phaetn

You can use a 6" or so drift through the hole in the bottom of the crossmember to push the back wall 1/8" or so further back behind the bolt head. You can then fish the rear bolts out through the bottom side holes in the crossmember without much fuss at all. A chisel on the bolt head welds you can reach will start loosening it, then a couple raps from the end of the bolt should bust the welds you can't reach without messing up the crossmember.

[AriK]

Knowing that you are maximizing on a crap-load of shims i would use washers until you're in the "zone". Once you've done that you can fine tune your degrees with proper shims. I know we frown upon washers because they're a pain when you re-adjust, but like this you won't have to worry about lose-one-lose-them-all effect scenario you've just experienced. These are the notorious nuts that we often keep re-torquing.
Just my 2cents.
I like the double nut idea too as an additional step.

[phaetn]

A protractor level is what I use.. It measures in degrees and is super accurate and cheap.. Typically used to measure pinion angles in race cars.. I think I paid $20 for mine through jegs..


Rob

Thanks, Rob. I picked up one that looks very similar to yours. About CA$20.

You can use a 6" or so drift through the hole in the bottom of the crossmember to push the back wall 1/8" or so further back behind the bolt head. You can then fish the rear bolts out through the bottom side holes in the crossmember without much fuss at all. A chisel on the bolt head welds you can reach will start loosening it, then a couple raps from the end of the bolt should bust the welds you can't reach without messing up the crossmember.

Thanks, bluespider262. I wasn't sure about the back wall of the crossmember. On the side where I did replace both bolts (driver's) there was already a slight gap in the back wall. I wasn't sure if it was structural or not and if I need to get it welded up again.

I ended up putting in coarser thread bolts in the hopes that it might end up being stronger than the finer ones. The highly competent hardware store I was at (specializes just in fasteners) said there is debate about fine vs. coarse. Coarse gives you a thicker walled thread, but fewer threads for the same linear distance. It might work out the be the same in terms of surface area. <shrug>

Knowing that you are maximizing on a crap-load of shims i would use washers until you're in the "zone". Once you've done that you can fine tune your degrees with proper shims. I know we frown upon washers because they're a pain when you re-adjust, but like this you won't have to worry about lose-one-lose-them-all effect scenario you've just experienced. These are the notorious nuts that we often keep re-torquing.
Just my 2cents.
I like the double nut idea too as an additional step.

Thanks, Ari. We think alike. I put in nice thick heavy duty washers on the one side below two shims. I knew that space was always going to have to be taken up.

The mechanic's was not time or money well spent. Nice guy, but couldn't make it right and I had a catastrophic failure in less than an hour of driving. Had it happened on the highway under braking at speed instead of at a stop sign it could have ripped the whole wheel right off as the lower control arm mountings failed! Now at least I know it's done right, though it took a lot of work on my own.

The car still had an unnerving tendency to wander, however, and pulled right under braking. I suspected bearings or spindle nuts. (Turns out the mech had loosened those off, too). I brought it to CanadaDan on Friday night, had a couple of beers and some laughs, then he properly adjusted the spindle nuts to get rid of some bearing growl; we took some measurements again from rear to front rims with a tape and decided to pull a shim. After a test drive drive we adjusted toe: It was much, much better in terms of wandering, but still pulled right under braking.

4uall kindly gave me some stainless brake lines in case a hose had partially collapsed and to explain why it pulled (uneven brake pad pressure).

Yesterday I decided to get rid of the spring compressor U-clamps on the back. With the new Konis they proved unnecessary as the front ride height was raised slightly. I knew this would again change the steering geometry of the car, though. The plus side is that it gives me a bit more bolt length to work with. So I took some more measurements and decided to add another shim on the passenger aft bolt. At the same time I also swapped tires front to back (there had been a vibration at the wheel) and also fixed a slightly off-set anti-roll bar that wasn't sitting right in the bushings. After a long afternoon and evening in the garage, I took it out for a test drive around 11:00pm after the kids and my wife had gone to bed. The car braked beautifully straight (not sure why it's better - shim, tread, sway bar?). I didn't care why, it was way better! Now it had a slight pull to the left again, but not serious. Measured toe and adjusted right tie rod before calling it a night. Will test again today.

Now I have to go back the mechanic's and ask them to give me at least a partial credit towards the alignment of a more modern car.

Thanks for your help, everyone!!

Cheers,
phaetn

[AriK]

Phaetn, Happy to hear that it worked out. That puts us one step forward to July27th. Too bad about that mechanic, i guess you fell through the cracks on that one.
The funny thing is that whenever "experts" fail it's always Canadan that saves the day. It has happened more than once that Canadan has heroically and promptly figured the solution to the impossible Fiat riddle. I say we capture and possess him, give him all he wants & needs to make him happy and he can fix our cars on demand. sort of like Siri. Whenever and wherever. Everyone in our clique own Fiats, so he'll be into something different every day, he'll never be bored, he'll be kept busy full time, never fail. He'll be compensated through the Canadan Fund. It will be an investment. When we realize that it's cheaper to maintain Ferraris we can upgrade and maybe we'll give him back to his family.
Canadan: We love you and i appreciate what you do for my friends. We understand that you don't do dat no more. It takes a special kind of someone to offer what you have to give. God Bless!

[4uall]

[spiderdan]

phaetn glad to hear you are almost there buddy.
Sweet.
Agree with all you said AriK.

A few days ago, I went with Canadan to look at a float he was thinking of buying. I agreed to go as long as we got my Spider out of storage on the way back. We took the cover of her, hooked up the battery, pulled the choke, slapped the gas pedal down about 20 times and she started right up.
I just love my Spider!
Went to Canadan's right away for some lubrication (us) and he gave a quick check under the hood. Tightened up the upper rad hose, added a bit of oil and adjusted my carb (it was sticking). It runs great.

Canadan that saves the day

Canadan: We love you

[AriK]

And there we have it... You're talking about your experience with Canadan and the pictures clearly show him manipulating phaetn's car. Seems like you're in a lineup waiting for your turn. He's always kept busy Like i said, we contribute to the Canadan fund amongst the bunch of us...

[spiderdan]

I was there for moral support.
Plus I didn't have my Spider that day. I won't let Canadan work on my new FCA toy (black thing in background) until the warranty expires!