Sleeving lower control arm mounting area in crossmember
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- Posts: 160
- Joined: Mon May 25, 2015 11:14 am
- Your car is a: 1979 Spider
Sleeving lower control arm mounting area in crossmember
I bought this spider and got it moving last year but never checked the front suspension for tightness until recently. I think the damage was already done though. I probably only put about 10 miles on it since I've gotten it. I could tell the front end was ready to release a wheel so I only took it a few blocks to the store, etc. last year maybe once a week or less during the summer.
So I'm redoing my spider's front end now and have to deal with a number of issues. A couple of lower control arm studs that have flattened threads and need replacement. I also have two loose studs on the pass. side because it was loose.
The front stud tapped right out but took a couple of 1/8" x 3/4" slivers of the metal around the head with it so now it doesn't resemble a hole in the back anymore. There's also two cracks from the hole to the leading edge, so that piece is hanging on by a thread too. In other words it has zero structural integrity at this point and I can't just put a new bolt in because there's no real metal for the head to seat against.
The rear stud I managed to get out with the crossmember in place by taking a 6" flat tip chisel in through the 2" hole in the bottom and tapping the sheet metal right behind the rear stud's head backwards about 1/2". I was then able to tap that stud into the crossmember and easily fish it out through the 2" hole with my finger. Fortunately that inner wall isn't cracked and only the three spot welds had broken free.
Both holes on the outer edge of the crossmember, that the control arm bolts to, are egged out 1.5x larger than the original holes, and the rear bolt was even wore through about 1/3 from constantly rubbing on that hole.
Thinking about it, the crossmember kind of has a poor design, with the relatively thin walled round tube sandwiched between a rather thin boxed section. I see a lot of folks reinforcing the top and outside of the inner bolt area where the head sits but that doesn't seem to resolve the fact that if something goes loose and isn't caught right away its going to cause the inner wall to crack again around the bolt head.
I did some measuring and the channel the bolts go through is straight and 1 1/8" square through its length.
I come from the Jeep world and we often sleeve things like axle tubes and control arms to make them stronger. So I'm thinking of getting a 5-6" section of ~ 1/8" walled 1" square steel. From there I'll tack some 1" 16 gauge strips to each of the four sides of that so I have a close fit into a 1 1/8" channel. Then I'll drill the appropriate front and rear inner/outer holes for the studs to pass through. Finally I'll tap that piece into the existing 1 1/8" square channel on the pass. side where the round sleeves normally live. I will also cut new thicker sleeves to go inside the square tube if I can fit them.
This should make the LCA bolt area a lot more robust IMHO. I'll have about 3x the wall thickness and the clamp load will be spread much further than the diameter of that sheet metal round sleeve. This has the added advantage that it will give me something substantial to "weld into" to fix the missing metal and cracks on the original inner wall which I still intend to save and use. I'm sure I can fix the issues without the sleeve by welding new bits to the outside of the front inner wall, but the sleeve just seems like the most logical approach because it solves many issues at once.
Sound like a reasonable plan of attack? I'm not sure at what point people simply replace their crossmembers. The bad studs didn't bother me but the egged out holes do - way too much play for any sort of consistent alignment I'm guessing.
So I'm redoing my spider's front end now and have to deal with a number of issues. A couple of lower control arm studs that have flattened threads and need replacement. I also have two loose studs on the pass. side because it was loose.
The front stud tapped right out but took a couple of 1/8" x 3/4" slivers of the metal around the head with it so now it doesn't resemble a hole in the back anymore. There's also two cracks from the hole to the leading edge, so that piece is hanging on by a thread too. In other words it has zero structural integrity at this point and I can't just put a new bolt in because there's no real metal for the head to seat against.
The rear stud I managed to get out with the crossmember in place by taking a 6" flat tip chisel in through the 2" hole in the bottom and tapping the sheet metal right behind the rear stud's head backwards about 1/2". I was then able to tap that stud into the crossmember and easily fish it out through the 2" hole with my finger. Fortunately that inner wall isn't cracked and only the three spot welds had broken free.
Both holes on the outer edge of the crossmember, that the control arm bolts to, are egged out 1.5x larger than the original holes, and the rear bolt was even wore through about 1/3 from constantly rubbing on that hole.
Thinking about it, the crossmember kind of has a poor design, with the relatively thin walled round tube sandwiched between a rather thin boxed section. I see a lot of folks reinforcing the top and outside of the inner bolt area where the head sits but that doesn't seem to resolve the fact that if something goes loose and isn't caught right away its going to cause the inner wall to crack again around the bolt head.
I did some measuring and the channel the bolts go through is straight and 1 1/8" square through its length.
I come from the Jeep world and we often sleeve things like axle tubes and control arms to make them stronger. So I'm thinking of getting a 5-6" section of ~ 1/8" walled 1" square steel. From there I'll tack some 1" 16 gauge strips to each of the four sides of that so I have a close fit into a 1 1/8" channel. Then I'll drill the appropriate front and rear inner/outer holes for the studs to pass through. Finally I'll tap that piece into the existing 1 1/8" square channel on the pass. side where the round sleeves normally live. I will also cut new thicker sleeves to go inside the square tube if I can fit them.
This should make the LCA bolt area a lot more robust IMHO. I'll have about 3x the wall thickness and the clamp load will be spread much further than the diameter of that sheet metal round sleeve. This has the added advantage that it will give me something substantial to "weld into" to fix the missing metal and cracks on the original inner wall which I still intend to save and use. I'm sure I can fix the issues without the sleeve by welding new bits to the outside of the front inner wall, but the sleeve just seems like the most logical approach because it solves many issues at once.
Sound like a reasonable plan of attack? I'm not sure at what point people simply replace their crossmembers. The bad studs didn't bother me but the egged out holes do - way too much play for any sort of consistent alignment I'm guessing.
- 124JOE
- Posts: 3141
- Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:11 pm
- Your car is a: 1978 124 fiat spider sport 1800
- Location: SO. WI
Re: Sleeving lower control arm mounting area in crossmember
can you weld some fender washers to the egg shaped holes?and yes sleeving it will make it stronger
when you do everything correct people arent sure youve done anything at all (futurama)
ul1joe@yahoo.com 124joe@gmail.com
ul1joe@yahoo.com 124joe@gmail.com
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- Posts: 160
- Joined: Mon May 25, 2015 11:14 am
- Your car is a: 1979 Spider
Re: Sleeving lower control arm mounting area in crossmember
I'd have to subtract the washer from the shim stack but yes I believe I might be able to get away with that. All four bolts had a 1/8" or so washer and 4 alignment shims (except for one that had 7 shims.)
- 124JOE
- Posts: 3141
- Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:11 pm
- Your car is a: 1978 124 fiat spider sport 1800
- Location: SO. WI
Re: Sleeving lower control arm mounting area in crossmember
ok so on mine i was driving and had a hard stop because some idiot cut me off
and i heard a loud bang (snapping sound) it was my crossmember it had spread about 3/4"
on the pass side me mechanic weled a small peice in its place but then it was pulling hard to the right
i thought that will do for now.but then my lower control arm took the brunt of the force
so a lower control arm was 75 bucks and the crossmember was $119 at the time i bought them
i had my brother replace them.while doing the job he had to remove the brakes and when it was all done
he said "there you go pull it out"without telling me to pump the brakes.so i put it in reverse and back out
and my foot hit the floor again the second time"rolling back twards a busy highway i freek out and turn the wheel left
just from going into traffic,i sideswipe a telephone pole putting a 8"gouge down the pass side door
that costed me $150.
that was 18yrs ago thanks for letting me tell the story.
anyway if i was you i would replace the crossmember.joe
(edit)yes my car i drove from reno to wi in 96 and im doing my part keeping it rust free and on the raod.
in my eyes its worth more than anything."ok 12 grand"but nobody around here will pay it,so im keeping it!!
and i heard a loud bang (snapping sound) it was my crossmember it had spread about 3/4"
on the pass side me mechanic weled a small peice in its place but then it was pulling hard to the right
i thought that will do for now.but then my lower control arm took the brunt of the force
so a lower control arm was 75 bucks and the crossmember was $119 at the time i bought them
i had my brother replace them.while doing the job he had to remove the brakes and when it was all done
he said "there you go pull it out"without telling me to pump the brakes.so i put it in reverse and back out
and my foot hit the floor again the second time"rolling back twards a busy highway i freek out and turn the wheel left
just from going into traffic,i sideswipe a telephone pole putting a 8"gouge down the pass side door
that costed me $150.
that was 18yrs ago thanks for letting me tell the story.
anyway if i was you i would replace the crossmember.joe
(edit)yes my car i drove from reno to wi in 96 and im doing my part keeping it rust free and on the raod.
in my eyes its worth more than anything."ok 12 grand"but nobody around here will pay it,so im keeping it!!
Last edited by 124JOE on Thu Mar 31, 2016 6:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
when you do everything correct people arent sure youve done anything at all (futurama)
ul1joe@yahoo.com 124joe@gmail.com
ul1joe@yahoo.com 124joe@gmail.com
- RRoller123
- Patron 2020
- Posts: 8179
- Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2011 2:04 pm
- Your car is a: 1980 FI SPIDER 2000
- Location: SAGAMORE BEACH, MA USA
Re: Sleeving lower control arm mounting area in crossmember
THAT is a great story, Joe.
'80 FI Spider 2000
'74 and '79 X1/9 (past)
'75 BMW R75/6
2011 Chevy Malibu (daily driver)
2010 Chevy Silverado 2500HD Ext Cab 4WD/STD BED
2002 Edgewater 175CC 80HP 4-Stroke Yamaha
2003 Jaguar XK8
2003 Jaguar XKR
2021 Jayco 22RB
2019 Bianchi Torino Bicycle
'74 and '79 X1/9 (past)
'75 BMW R75/6
2011 Chevy Malibu (daily driver)
2010 Chevy Silverado 2500HD Ext Cab 4WD/STD BED
2002 Edgewater 175CC 80HP 4-Stroke Yamaha
2003 Jaguar XK8
2003 Jaguar XKR
2021 Jayco 22RB
2019 Bianchi Torino Bicycle
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- Posts: 160
- Joined: Mon May 25, 2015 11:14 am
- Your car is a: 1979 Spider
Re: Sleeving lower control arm mounting area in crossmember
OMG that is some bad luck Joe.
Where in WI are you? I'm down here in Kenosha.
Where in WI are you? I'm down here in Kenosha.
-
- Posts: 985
- Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:08 pm
- Your car is a: 1970 fiat 124bc
- Location: Belgrade, Serbia, eastern Europe
Re: Sleeving lower control arm mounting area in crossmember
replace the crossmember.
they're available new.
seem weld it and weld the studs before you install it
they're available new.
seem weld it and weld the studs before you install it
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- Posts: 3996
- Joined: Sat May 23, 2009 1:23 pm
- Your car is a: 1971 124 Spider
- Location: Texas, USA
Re: Sleeving lower control arm mounting area in crossmember
I reinforced the crossmember on a race carwith a square tube, as you described. However that crossmember was in a lot better shape to begin with than yours.
Csaba
'71 124 Spider, much modified
'17 124 Abarth, silver
http://italiancarclub.com/csaba/
Co-owner of the best dang Fiat parts place in town
'71 124 Spider, much modified
'17 124 Abarth, silver
http://italiancarclub.com/csaba/
Co-owner of the best dang Fiat parts place in town
-
- Posts: 160
- Joined: Mon May 25, 2015 11:14 am
- Your car is a: 1979 Spider
Re: Sleeving lower control arm mounting area in crossmember
I decided to take a chance on a used "8.5 out of 10" crossmember from midwest. We'll see how that looks once it gets here. I've read that the aftermarket crossmembers aren't as good as OEM so figured this was probably the best way to go assuming it is as described (crack free & perfect bolts.)
- v6spider
- Posts: 1035
- Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 6:57 pm
- Your car is a: 4.3L V6 Powered 1972 124 FIAT Spider
- Location: Mount Vernon WA
Re: Sleeving lower control arm mounting area in crossmember
My cross-member square tube reinforced and seam welded... Ignore the engine mount mods.. That is setup for a 4.3L Vortec V6...
Rob
http://www.v6spider.com
4.3L V6 Powered 1972 124 FIAT Spider
4.3L V6 Powered 1972 124 FIAT Spider
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- Posts: 160
- Joined: Mon May 25, 2015 11:14 am
- Your car is a: 1979 Spider
Re: Sleeving lower control arm mounting area in crossmember
Wow that is beefy.
My used Midwest/Bayless crossmember came yesterday - looks like new and all the bolts are perfect. Definitely money well spent. I was nervous not buying from AR as I normally do (sorry guys!) but no complaints here and this was about half the price of a new one.
My used Midwest/Bayless crossmember came yesterday - looks like new and all the bolts are perfect. Definitely money well spent. I was nervous not buying from AR as I normally do (sorry guys!) but no complaints here and this was about half the price of a new one.
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- Posts: 160
- Joined: Mon May 25, 2015 11:14 am
- Your car is a: 1979 Spider
Re: Sleeving lower control arm mounting area in crossmember
oops never mind
- v6spider
- Posts: 1035
- Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 6:57 pm
- Your car is a: 4.3L V6 Powered 1972 124 FIAT Spider
- Location: Mount Vernon WA
Re: Sleeving lower control arm mounting area in crossmember
The tube on the bottom that I added also serves as a mount for my Mustang II rack.. In order to install the 4.3L V6 I had to change the way the car steered and turn the cross member around 180°..bluespider262 wrote: Wow that is beefy...
I highly recommend welding every seam on your cross member and strengthening around the area where the studs go through isn't a bad idea either..
Cheers!
Rob
http://www.v6spider.com
4.3L V6 Powered 1972 124 FIAT Spider
4.3L V6 Powered 1972 124 FIAT Spider