Why do people remove turbos?

[younkin1]

Hi Guys,

I recently found a guy who was parting out a (very rusted) Legend turbo car and bought everything he had related to the turbo install (Exhaust manifold, turbo, down pipe connector, vacuum valves, turbo gauge, intake plenum, exc. -everything). I purchased this stuff knowing it was rather rare, and too possibly install it on my own car. But then I started reading some people have removed these turbo systems and I'm wondering why? Is it a driveability issue or a design flaw? What are the problems people were having with them? I've check this site and others and I can't really find any real info other than somethings that might be related to general maintenance. I know there is only about a 18hp gain and 20ft.tq. gain but for what I paid I thought it was worth it. One thing I did notice and I know its not require, but there's no BOV? Maybe at 6-7 psi there's no benefit really? Also, I did read about a couple of people removing the systems after turbo failure? Are they just junk turbos maybe? Any input would be greatly appreciated- Thanks Guys

[divace73]

you'll find by now the turbo needs servicing or overhaul and may parts no longer exist, therefor most people de-turbo their car, kind of shame really

Also the L-Jet was tricked into certain conditions with the adaptation of the turbo and the distributor was restricted to reduce pinging.

Ideally if you were going to re-install all the stuff do you
Add an inter-cooler
Add after marker ECU ( Megasquirt, Haltech etc))
Add tooth crank for spark control OR Wasted spark set up
Add cam sensor for full sequential set up
Add oil cooler for the turbo

It would be great if you keep us posted what you end up deciding what to do

[TimpanogosSlim]

I guess it would depend on exactly what turbo it is but the older KKK turbos seem to still have parts available, somewhat anyway.

No reason (other than fitment and plumbing!) you can't substitute a modern turbo from a similarly sized engine. Use a manual boost controller on the wastegate actuator line to set your desired boost level.

Really, on older cars, it seems that the turbo manifold is the hard part to find. or maybe that's just me. Alternately, I've seen several people argue that just plumbing in the turbo somewhere after your exhaust system shrinks down to a single tube is A-OK. That of course requires fabrication skills.

I bet that a turbo could be grafted onto the stock manifold of a 2L twin cam, but it would take some skills. You could do it with just an adapter plate, but group experience to date suggests that it's easier / better / more convenient if the turbo is up by cylinder 1.

I know people who used to work for that company that sold rear-mount turbo systems and they *swear that having the turbo in the position with the worst possible efficiency really isn't so bad.

I hadn't noticed old turbo systems w/o a blowoff valve but as you say maybe at 6psi it's not such a big deal. It's not hard to plumb in a BOV - just get one of the simple vacuum actuated valves - when the manifold pulls a vacuum the charge pipe vents.

On the other hand, maybe the original turbo is so lazy (by modern standards) that it just can't hold that much pressure in the first place. One example would be the turbo used on Isuzu's 4BD1T commercial diesel engine, which on it's very best day, below sea level, might put out 7psi. theoretically. They didn't even fit it with a wastegate.

I figure in the 80's people removed turbos due to the expense of repairing them, and the difficulty of finding anyone qualified to do it. Turbochargers are far more common these days.

And yeah, I agree wholeheartedly that the old injection and ignition systems were barely up to the task.

[bradartigue]

In general Spiders were sold to non-enthusiasts (like most cars) by dealers who weren't trained to prepare or maintain them. Derivatives - Turbo and Air Conditioning and Auto Transmissions - were added to the cars when sales were slowing, dealers were abandoning the brand, training was lacking, etc. All of this contributes to maintenance problems.

You can infer from the service letters the problems FIAT had:

New car is sold
Driver ignores break-in instructions and drives the piss out of it, especially with the turbo
Car isn't brought back for the 1300/1800 mile free service (which included a head retorque and oil change)
Driver notices an oil leak at 3000 miles, blames car, takes it to dealer
Dealer has to fix the car, FIAT doesn't reimburse them (per the service letters the dealer is responsible)
Leak is stopped
Driver continues to maintain it like an idiot
Car has head gasket failure at 10k, driver hates car
Dealer replaces head gasket
Turbo fails
Driver hates car more, and dealer
Side of the road mechanic removes turbo "HE KNOWS FAITS"
Driver hates car more and more, then it rusts
...years go by...
Brad buys car in 1996 for $200, replaces head gasket, drives until 2006.

Amen

[DieselSpider]

You have to use the correct grade of oil in a turbo equipped car or the heat from the turbo will coke the oil and it then seizes the turbine or it starts leaking and smoking badly. Now the owner finds out those few dollars he saved using cheap no-name oil from Wally World will all be consumed in the repair of the turbo charger so they just rip it all out because its cheaper than fixing it.

Some who did use the right oil when faced with a second or third differential rebuild or a premature engine failure may also decide to pull the turbo since they can't keep their foot out of it and end up driving like they stole it when the boost kicks in. The kick when you acheive tubo boost is very addictive to some drivers

[TimpanogosSlim]

not so much grade of oil as quality of oil, i think.

In the past this generally meant synthetic oil. Today there are store-brand "synthetics" that are blends of unknown ratio that might not be good enough.

And there are name brand dino oils that are apparently good enough.

Materials and manufacturing science alone have improved the quality of modern turbos tremendously, plus the designs are better too.

It's been normal for some time now for a turbocharged engine to go 200,000 miles without turbo issues.

unless you count oil consumption as a turbo issue, and it's amazing what an auto maker will decide is 'normal' oil consumption these days.

[profcucchi]

In general Spiders were sold to non-enthusiasts (like most cars) by dealers who weren't trained to prepare or maintain them. Derivatives - Turbo and Air Conditioning and Auto Transmissions - were added to the cars when sales were slowing, dealers were abandoning the brand, training was lacking, etc. All of this contributes to maintenance problems.

You can infer from the service letters the problems FIAT had:

New car is sold
Driver ignores break-in instructions and drives the piss out of it, especially with the turbo
Car isn't brought back for the 1300/1800 mile free service (which included a head retorque and oil change)
Driver notices an oil leak at 3000 miles, blames car, takes it to dealer
Dealer has to fix the car, FIAT doesn't reimburse them (per the service letters the dealer is responsible)
Leak is stopped
Driver continues to maintain it like an idiot
Car has head gasket failure at 10k, driver hates car
Dealer replaces head gasket
Turbo fails
Driver hates car more, and dealer
Side of the road mechanic removes turbo "HE KNOWS FAITS"
Driver hates car more and more, then it rusts
...years go by...
Brad buys car in 1996 for $200, replaces head gasket, drives until 2006.

Amen

Did Brad sell the car for $200 plus a head gasket replacement?

[bradartigue]

Nope.

It was more of a joke, I never owned or desire to own a turbo. My one 80s turbo was a Saab 900 and while fun sometimes the spool up and acceleration of those early turbos isn't my thing. On a fiat it's just something the car wasn't designed for, something I don't want

But to your point I bought a few cheap ones and (relative to now) they were sold for little gain. I never lost money on a spider but I never made enough to justify the labor cost either. It would have been a hard living indeed.

[rridge]

The Legend system was based on the Warner-Ishi RHB6, an uncommon turbo. The turbo and modified exhaust system were packaged so tightly against the side of the engine block that it was almost impossible to service them without dismantling much of the passenger side of the engine compartment. The packaging exposed several critical components to excessive heat. After as little as 20-30k miles Turbos began to need parts and service. Actuators failed, carbon seals wore out, special silicone rubber hoses baked to a crisp or were burnt through by improper routing after service work.

Turbo Spiders were only sold in the U.S. and only in '81 and '82. About 10% of the Spiders sold in the U.S. in those two model years were converted by Legend. Fiat abandoned the U.S. market in '82. Parts supplies and technical knowledge, which were never widely available, dried up. Both Legend Industries and Warner-Ishi also disappeared. By the late 1980's the Turbo Spiders were all but unsupported.

The larger issue with Turbo Spiders is that the cost and hassle of supporting them wasn't worth the bother. The engines had no internal modifications. They could easily be converted back to their original FI configuration which provided 105 hp. If more power was needed, a modest compression bump and some retimed cams could provide 120 hp, matching the Turbo's output. The one unique benefit of the Turbo was that it allowed the TC engine to meet U.S. new car emissions standards, not something that most used car owners outside California were not much concerned about.

Legend Turbos still on the road today have been modified using turbo parts scavenged from parts cars as well as from other applications. Heat shields and insulation have been added. Generic parts solutions have been found. Yet it is unusual to find a survivor with more that 70-80k miles on the odo.

[younkin1]

Well Guys, you have given me some real food for thought. Sound likes it's most likely a combination of poor owners maintenance/care and possible design flaws this turbo system that doomed it. I haven't yet decided to install the system. I'm first going to fully restore it, bead blast and powder coat all cast parts and then decide if I want to install the system. The turbo is in very good condition, spins freely with very, very little end play. But most likely the internal oil seals are rotted away, so it will be getting rebuilt.

With such a small power gain (18 hp) I'm am considering going the increased CR route. This car is getting completely restored with no intention of being sold. With that long term ownership in mind, it's beginning to sound like a NA engine will just be easier to keep up down the road. Let's face it, if parts are hard to find now, how hard will it be to find them in 5 or 10 years from now. But the uniqueness is what get me thinking, maybe I should install the turbo. Roughly 700 of them were built, and most likely many less are still on the road today. This car when completed will get only about 3000 miles a year put on it. So, if I only got 30,000 miles out of the turbo that is about 10 years of service. I figure, I could probably get far more than that with proper care. But then again I'd be limiting myself to about 120-125 hp at best with the limitation of turbo setup. The only really modification I'd probably do is fabricate a larger down pipe connected to a larger exhaust system (factory down pipe size is only 1.75"). My ideal hp/torque goal is 130-140 hp/140-150 torque. I'm pretty Sure I can get close to this with an higher CR NA engine and still retain the driveabilty.

I appreciate the information and opinions guys, I'll be posting the turbo parts for sale on this forum if I decide to sell them.

[rridge]

The most common mistake in buying and selling Legend turbo systems is failing to get all the unique parts. Here a list I've compiled over time.
1 - Warner-Ishi (IHI) RHB6 turbo with Legend mods (has a special spec number stamped on the case beginning with the letters "leg")
2 - wastegate actuator (mounted on turbo)
3 - mounting bracket exhaust elbow to block
4 - 4 to 1 turbo exhaust manifold
5 - turbo exhaust cast elbow with oxygen sensor
6 - stainless steel down pipe from exhaust elbow to stock 4-bolt catalyst
7 - AFM to turbo intake hose (flexible black oil-resistant silicone tape molded over wire with 2 90degree elbows and crankcase vent port)
8 - turbo outlet to plenum hose (heavy orange silicone over fiberglass pressure hose
9 - plenum with "Legend Turbo" in cast aluminum
10 - plenum to intake manifold hose - a three inch collar of black silicone hose and associated hose clamps
11 - modified FI electrical harness (the FI system has its own harness separate from the main chassis electrical harness)
12 - four Hobbs pressure switches, two switches per bracket
13 - vacuum hose and tees to connect the pressure switches to the intake manifold
14 - vacuum/pressure boost gauge (actually a stock VDO unit with a Legend face) and white nylon vacuum hose
15 - stock water temp gauge with lettering added on face "no boost until warm" or words to that effect.
16 - one-way diaphragm in vacuum line from charcoal canister to intake manifold. (prevents canister pressurization under boost)
17 - distributor with Legend modifications to recurve timing advance. One of two centrifugal advance springs is missing and replaced with a steel link.
18 - heat shield with cad plated steel on the corner of plastic air filter box to protect it from heat of turbo
19 - large vinyl emissions sticker on valance next to hood release
20 - white plastic plate on door jamb with "modified by Legend Industries" (drivers side near VIN plate)
21 - door jamb sticker with date of conversion near white Legend plate
22 - oil pan with elbow for turbo oil return ( was added to the stock oil pan but you have to know precisely where to add it)
23 - steel oil return line from underside of turbo to oil pan
24- turbo support strut - goes on over the oil return line flange and connects to the block at the back of the motor mount
25 - oil supply take off from filter hosing (a tee which holds the pressure switch and the fitting for the supply line to the turbo)
25 - short nitrile rubber hose from steel oil return line to oil pan elbow (usually falling apart but still useful for a pattern)
26 - oil supply line from filter hosing to top of turbo, braided steel, should not be reused but useful for pattern
27 - crankcase vent hose to nipple on intake hose (useful for pattern)
28 - metal pipe and fitting to connect plenum with idle air bypass valve
29 - rubber cap on firewall side of throttle body to block off unused crankcase vent intake
30 - 1/8" bent iron strap to support plenum corner from the forward exhaust heat shield mounting stud
31 - Supplemental owner's manual for Legend Turbo

Hope this helps.

[FiIiAiT2000]

Here's a really cheap method for ignition timing with a mildly boosted fiat. Not sure quite how effective it is. I'm wondering how much extra hp you could get with a few modifications to the stock turbo setup and engine. 20 hp doesn't seem like much for all that trouble. Guess you have to worry about the drivetrain too though the higher you go. I'd love a 200hp firebreathing burnout machine with no top, but I don't think the stock diff would be as enthusiastic about it.

http://m.instructables.com/id/Dirt-chea ... -wired-up/

[bradartigue]

Around 130HP the transmission starts to get mad at you.

[younkin1]

Hi Guy's,

Just a quick update. I have been pulling my hair trying to decide if I want to turbo my Spider. Midwest Turbo Connection in Wisconsin just finished going through it completely and it wasn't cheap but they did great job. The only problem with the turbo now is the wastegate actuator leaks and I can't find one anywhere. I'll probably use a actuator off 2001-02 Subaru WRX, I pretty sure the Subaru factory pressure is 7 psi. So I have a near complete turbo setup I purchased from a guy in Kentucky. I'm missing a couple of items (exhaust down pipe, the silicone hose from the AFM with breather tube, the intake plenum support bar, exhaust manifold heat shield and oil pan) all of which I can easily fab up myself. But I'm really OCD about my cars. I just sit staring at photo's of the factory turbo setup thinking 2 things to myself. First- And this will sound funny to some people, but what a poor design setup. But I fully understand why they did it the way they did- economics. Second- Simplicity and longevity are a big deal to me, especially under the hood. I'm driving myself crazy trying to decide if I should go high compression or turbo with my build. The simple, clean look of an NA high compression engine - vs - the rareness and fun of a turbo? Both serving the same goal of around 130-140 HP. Thoughts?

[124JOE]

on one hand i say go for the turbo it will sound soooo cool and fun to run


on the other hand i think the higher CR would give good power and be just as much fun without the worry of killing the turbo

also the tranz 130 hp to worry about ether way

thanks for the education guys.joe