1980 FI Spider - no start & possible seized engine (photos)

[goyal99]

Hello everyone!

I'm working on a Project car - a 1980 FI Spider that's been sitting idle for a long time....Obviously is NOT running and it's not even turning over yet! I have no history on this vehicle and I have no idea the last time it was running....So I'm assuming the worse case scenarios here. It also appears that the engine is seized but I have not tried to turn it at the crank yet (don't have the correct socket).


I've got a good fully charged battery but when I turn the ignition key on START position all I get is one loud CLICK...One click, not repeated clicks....When I turn the key off and start again the same single CLICK...I've tried several times with the same result....The photo below shows the starter which looks pretty old and I'm not even sure it works (excuse the spider webs)...




I've cleaned the starter solenoid's wires (3 wires going to the right solenoid post) and a smaller RED wire going to the spade terminal...I get Voltage to the solenoid post (+12.7) when battery is connected and ignition OFF....I get nothing at the RED wire going to the spade terminal. the photo below shows the cleaned wires (3 of them) connected to one starter solenoid post and the RED wire connected to the spade solenoid post.



Then I looked under the car to see where the bolts are to remove the starter for bench testing and I discovered that the green Ground wire was detached from the bellhousing!! There's a hole on the bellhousing case where I think the Ground wire should attach...Is that correct?? Below is a photo which shows what I'm talking about....




The other end of the thick green Ground wire is attached to the car's body.



I don't know if the loose Ground cable is directly related to the starter problem but I'd like to know where else can I connect this Ground cable on the bellhousing?? Can I use any bolt hole to Ground it??

Well that's where I'm at right now...I'm working on this car today and tomorrow pretty much all day to get it started at least...Restoring it is another question - I'm not thinking about that possibility yet....I'd like to hear the engine running and then I will figure out what to do with it next.

Any suggestions and ideas what to check next on starting this car will be appreciated....I'm not ready to pull the starter out just yet - I just like to test it some more before replacing it.

VK
1980 Spider red 5spd

[So Cal Mark]

that large ground cable HAS to be connected to the engine or trans! Otherwise you'll be using the clutch cable and or throttle cable as a ground path. They won't carry the amount of amperage it takes to start the car. Attach the ground cable anywhere on the engine or trans, just make sure it's a clean spot and you can tighten the bolt. The red spade wire will only have voltage when the key is in the START position. Check the voltage at the solenoid with the key in START after connecting the ground wire. You need at least 9.6 to make the starter operate

[Ernie]

That one loud clunk might be the starter engaging without being able to turn the engine over.

Have you checked to see if the engine can be turned by hand? That's a 1.5"/38mm nut on the crankshaft in case you need some leverage.

You might want to pull the spark plugs and toss some oil or at least WD-40 into the cylinders before you try.

Ernie

[pope]

I would connect the ground wire to the engine or trans, but not at the sight hole that you are showing at pic #3. Find an existing bolt.
I think Ernie is right that the engine is possibly locked up after sitting for years. See if the engine will turn with the plugs out of it.

Good Luck

[goyal99]

Okay, first of all THANK YOU for your quick replies and suggestions...

You are absolutely right on the "seized" engine possibility....I haven't tried to turn the engine over manually - I don't have the 38mm socket to do it, but I will get one shortly. There is oil in engine but that doesn't mean much, I know...Well if the engine turns out to be seized then it would be a nice parts car. I'm sure I will get double what I paid for it by just selling parts off it...

I connected the loose Ground cable to another bolt hole at the trans bellhousing, as per suggestions. Is there another major grounding point that I need to check in the engine bay, just in case something else in disconnected??




So on to the starter solenoid issue...I followed Mark's suggestion and measured the voltage when the ignition key was in START engine position...The voltage measured at the spade connector (red wire) was only 6.8V a few times the starter was engaged...I still heard the clunking of the starter but no start! So what does this mean?? is my battery running low or is there a drop in voltage somewhere?? The battery measured 12.9V at the terminals but I have been using it for testing the starter all day long so it might be running low....I will charge the battery and see what reading I get.

Is 9.6V measured at the spade solenoid terminal (when ignition turned to START engine) the lowest reading the solenoid needs to fully engage the starter??

Thanks in advance for your help - VK

[pope]

Lets see some pics of the car, the engine might be worth rebuilding.

[So Cal Mark]

measure the voltage at the large terminal on the starter. You need at least 9.6v there.
Since you haven't turned the engine yet, remove the spark plugs and pour auto trans fluid in each hole and let it sit a couple of days, Then try to turn the engine back and forth to break it loose.

[goyal99]

measure the voltage at the large terminal on the starter. You need at least 9.6v there.

Which large terminal at the starter?? Do you mean the left terminal on the solenoid which is connected to the starter?? I took a measurement on that terminal and it's 6.8V, when the ignition is on START engine....It sounds to me that I'm not getting enough voltage to the starter since I need at least 9.6V there....The right side solenoid terminal is getting 12.7V all the time...That's the one with the 3 wires connected to it....Do I need to replace the battery with a newer one and where is the voltage drop ??

Since you haven't turned the engine yet, remove the spark plugs and pour auto trans fluid in each hole and let it sit a couple of days, Then try to turn the engine back and forth to break it loose.

Okay, I did put some engine oil down the plug holes today (didn't have any trany fluid handy) and I'll wait until I get that 38mm socket to turn the crank manually...I won't play around with the starter anymore until I can turn the engine manually and see what happens....If the starter is still good I don't want to damage it by forcing the starter to turn a 'frozen' engine over. I'd rather get it unstuck manually.

Lets see some pics of the car, the engine might be worth rebuilding.

I don't have any good photos of this Spider but it's nothing to write home about...The body has rust and it needs a repaint badly...But the top is still good and the interior is better than average!! It's a project car at best but if the engine is toast then it's a good parts car. I'll find out shortly...




I will post more photos tomorrow when I get a chance to work on it again.

VK

[Ernie]

The engine is not necessarily toast if you can't get it to turn over at first.

Don't give up too soon. You can already see there are plenty folks here willing to help.

If the engine is bound up a bit from sitting, it is possible you can free it if you proceed carefully. Some ATF or Marvel Mystery Oil sitting for some days could do wonders.

Try too hard, too soon, could get the engine turned over, but with a broken ring.

Worse case next step might be to pull the head for a look. That's really not such a heavy job. Like i said, plenty folks here to help.

Ernie

[So Cal Mark]

check the voltage at the lug on the solenoid where the battery cable attaches. Under load you need 9.6v there. If you have 12v there under load, then check the lug that attaches to the starter motor. If you only have 6.8 there it sounds like you need a new solenoid. The readings can be affected if the starter can't turn a seized motor.

The problem with using motor oil is that it will foul the spark plugs when you do get ready to start it. ATF and Marvel will burn and not foul plugs. Plus, they have a natural cleaning action and are much thinner, working past the rings where oil will just sit on top

[goyal99]

Okay guys, thanks for your suggestions and advise....very much appreciated.

Mark, I've already dumped some engine oil in the plug holes....is it okay to mix it with trans fluid or Mystery oil on top of that?? I will wait a few days as per your suggestion and see if I can turn this puppy over manually....I don't know how long it's sitting idle but I guess at least a couple of years, if not longer.

If I sounded like I was ready to give up on this project on my previous posts, well I not about to yet....Hopefully with your help I can fire the engine and put this Spider on the road. However, if it turns out it's not the case, I don't have the knowledge or the time to rebuild the engine...I'd rather purchase another Spider in running condition and keep this one as a parts car.

I must say that I'm glad I joined this forum and I can tell from the responses and suggestions I've received so far, there's a lot of knowledgeable and helpful folks in here.....This is my first Fiat Spider but I do have some experience with Alfa Spiders. I bought this Fiat at a very low price so I was aware that I was getting a Project car from the start. I should have tried to turn the motor over manually first and THEN worry about trying to fire the engine...I do need to get that 38mm socket.

Best regards - VK

[So Cal Mark]

no problem mixing the atf and oil, heck, fill the cyls up with atf. Just be prepared for lots of smoke when and if you start it. I hate to see cars become parts cars if they can be saved. If it ends up just needing a motor, you can probably find a decent used one for not much money.

[mdrburchette]

38mm equates to 1 1/2". It may be easier to find.

[mbouse]

agreed, denise. I use 1 1/2" socket with a 1" breaker bar. Everyone has those, and nearly no one has the 38mm w/out special ordering.

[pope]

I usually dont have that problem with the Metrics'R Us store down the block.