Opened the 1.4L and this is how it looks

[RCSquadraCorse]

Posting here too, so it may get more attention from the experts.

Ok, so, I've removed all the pulleys using an air gun and without locking the flywheel since the engine won't rotate even with a huge wrench.
Took the engine apart and I need some opinions.
This is what I've found:

This is how the head looks. I'm not very familiar with rust/oxide on valves, but it doesn't look very nice to me:




As you can see cylinder #4 is the worst and I've also found an oil leak in the exhaust gasket:


Still issues on #4 by looking at this head gasket:


Pistons and block. They're completely DRY (as the gears inside the engine below the distributor) and stuck, even using a wrench the pistons won't move. Cylinders surface looks good tho:



Water pump hole:


Distributor, not much left of the plastic ring:


Still have to remove the oil pan and the intake manifold, but judging by these images what do you think of the engine?
Is it shot? Is it worth reparing? If so, any suggestion on how to proceed is gladly appreciated!

[fiatfactory]

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[RCSquadraCorse]

Thank you Steve. That's most likely what happened. So what do you recommend a part from trying to get the piston out with penetrating oil? I guess that piston rings need to be removed once the pistons will be out but what about the valves? The part around the valves doesn't look very nice too and as you can see from the pictures above the holes for the water on the block are not in a particular good shape (small bits are missing). Just trying to figure out what to do because I've never been into an engine rebuild like this one.
Thanks again for your answer

PS: a rat nest in an engine sounds insane to me! I can only imagine the conditions of the cylinder!

[azruss]

I dont see anything that looks very bad. looks like a leak between #3 and #4. this means surfacing the head and block. the rust on the valves look superficial. You will need to see what the cylinder walls looks like after you've pulled the pistons.

[djape1977]

As you can see cylinder #4 is the worst and I've also found an oil leak in the exhaust gasket:

there's no oil near exaust gasket, it could have only come from the cam housing

[RCSquadraCorse]

I dont see anything that looks very bad. looks like a leak between #3 and #4. this means surfacing the head and block. the rust on the valves look superficial. You will need to see what the cylinder walls looks like after you've pulled the pistons.

Piston #4 is stuck and so are some valves, plus the surfaces on the combustion chambers #1 and #4 on the head are not smooth at all. I will try to use diesel and oil for some days to see if the parts will move and I will see how the cylinders walls will look.
I still don't know if it's worth repairing it or if it's better to look for a new engine.

As you can see cylinder #4 is the worst and I've also found an oil leak in the exhaust gasket:

there's no oil near exaust gasket, it could have only come from the cam housing

Yeah, I described it poorly, my bad!

[vandor]

Likely the engine is locked because the cylinders are rusted under the pistons. From what I've seen in the pic the engine looks a bit rough, but all it needs is a decent rebuild. The hardest part will be finding oversize pistons.

Even if you will do most of the work yourself you need to find a good machine shop that can bore the block and rebuild the cylinder head. Don't worry about valves, guides, etc, they would all be replaced.

[fiatfactory]

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[RCSquadraCorse]

Likely the engine is locked because the cylinders are rusted under the pistons. From what I've seen in the pic the engine looks a bit rough, but all it needs is a decent rebuild. The hardest part will be finding oversize pistons.

Even if you will do most of the work yourself you need to find a good machine shop that can bore the block and rebuild the cylinder head. Don't worry about valves, guides, etc, they would all be replaced.

Thank you Csaba, I wish to have people like you specialized on these cars here in Italy! There isn't very much a DIY culture here so it's often a problem to find the right parts for my engine (lots of 1.8 and 2.0 parts tho).
I'm already making some phone calls to find a good machine shop around my area in Milan. All the shops I know are UBER expensive because they are specialized on vintage supercars and racing cars like Ferraris, Porsches, Lolas, Abarth prototypes and so on...! Looking for a good but "normal" one. Lol!

As Csaba says, don't worry too much about the corrosion and pitting you see, it can nearly always be machined out. If the bores are pitted and corroded (which it's likely they will be) that's nothing that cant usually be solved by an overbore and a new set of pistons... realistically now would be the time to start looking for some NOS oversized pistons. There are a few ebay sellers in Italy that list regularly and if you buy up with loads of extra lead time, you won't be paying the "I need it now" premium.

Same with the valves... the seats can be recut (which you would have done as part of a good recondition anyway) back to an "as new" surface anyway... and valves can quite easily be replaced (or recut on the sealing face) ... guides too ... that's really all just part of a "proper" rebuild anyway, so don't stress about the condition of your core.

You may as well strip the head and have it bead blasted, so you can make a detailed assessment of it's condition.

If you've never been into an engine this far before, your in for a treat. It's what I think is one of life's "rites of passage" for a car guy (or girl) and even better than that, it's GOOD FUN.

And please, with your photographic skills make sure you document every detail...

SteveC

oh yeah, mouse piss is really corrosive and that engine needed to be mounted into a press and have several tons of force applied to shift the stuck piston...but it came good with a rebore and a new set of pistons and rings.

Thanks a lot for sharing your knowledge Steve.
When you say NOS oversize pistons, which one should I look for? I mean, if I have to overbore the cylinders and the standard ones are 80mm, what measure should I look for? I've never seen (or searched actually) NOS oversize pistons for the 1.4L, can you please share some links or info about them? Maybe it depends on how much the machine shop is going to overbore?

Also, having the head bead blasted is good idea too, it will ends up nice and clean hopefully, will ask for that too during my phone calls.

As I said before, I've never been into such an engine rebuild and while it should be all fun, unfortunately sometimes it's just frustrating because of bolts and stuff that won't come off! For example now I have the intake manifold stuck into the head because one of the threaded bolts/thinghy (it's not a bolt, it's actually where you put the bolt but you get the idea) is completely rusted INSIDE the hole of the intake manifold... I've almost destroyed the gasket while trying to pry with a screwdriver and it just won't come off... and it p***es me off because I get stuck with the work for hours or days! Lol!

I'm documenting everything but as you can see I'm using just a cheap lens because my hands are always dirty and there is some dust around so I don't want to take in assistance my "1000Euro+ each" pro lenses to snap some images!
Maybe I will take some nice shots when I will have all the new shiny bits

Oh, and thank God that I didn't find any mouse inside the engine!

Thanks again to everyone for your patience and availabilty, I do really appreciate it!

Riccardo

[fiatfactory]

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[RCSquadraCorse]

Thanks again for giving me some confidence Steve
That said, when I was 14 I was just playing with my scooters, putting 17 and 19 Dell'Orto carbs, Polini exhaust and stuff like that... Lol! Plug and play things that made me feel a sort of little mechanic!
Only now, at 28 y.o., I've been able to start playing with cars because I'm the only car guy in the whole family and before I couldn't afford all these things (tools, spare parts etc). Moreover everything I'm doing seem just odd to the others, they just step inside the garage and have a laugh. And in Italy this is the attitude of 90% of the people and when they have major issues they just take the car to the mechanic, losing all the "good part" of having a classic car (and no one is 28 y.o., they're usually 45+ and sometimes they can't even change their oil).

I'll try all my best to documenting and write down all the process of the rebuild, my restoration thread is becoming quite big and I'm not even at half of the process... Lol!

Of course I will try to get the machine job done by a professional shop. Once finished I want the engine to last!
I will ask you for more info on the pistons when I will be in the process of taking the engine to the machine shop, I'm not in a hurry to finish it, even because in a bit more than one week I will be back "shooting behind the fences" as we use to say
In 2 or 3 weeks I should do a photoshooting to a Lancia Delta S4 Stradale and that will be quite fun!

Back on topic, this is what I mean when I say that sometimes is frustrating to restore a car... this is the threaded thing that I was refering to before:

It's completely stuck and filled with rust, diesel, penetrating oil, hammering on the intake with a piece of wood, prying with screwdrivers... nothing seem to be able to move even a little bit that part of the intake. All the other holes of the intake are free but this one is really annoying me from 2 days now.
Even the carburetor is stuck on the intake because the PO used silicon on every single gasket of the engine...
I'm going mad with these things that really slow me down!

Riccardo

[djape1977]

seems to me that intake is glued with silicone too. that can be a real bitch. use a wooden hammer, and hit it hard, from alternate directions. if it doesn't let go, use couple of wedges, maybe a wood chisle, one from one side and second from the other and just hammer them in between intake and head. it will let go at some point, hopefully before you damage the head. gaskets will have to be replaced anyway.

Thank you Csaba, I wish to have people like you specialized on these cars here in Italy! There isn't very much a DIY culture here so it's often a problem to find the right parts for my engine (lots of 1.8 and 2.0 parts tho).
I'm already making some phone calls to find a good machine shop around my area in Milan. All the shops I know are UBER expensive because they are specialized on vintage supercars and racing cars like Ferraris, Porsches, Lolas, Abarth prototypes and so on...! Looking for a good but "normal" one. Lol!

any machine shop that can do a rebuild of a head from 1985-1995 fiat croma or 1996 lancia HPE 1.8 will do just fine the head off a 124, wether it be 1438cc, 1608, 1756 or 1995cc. in fact, only thing diferent would be valve guides in 15.05mm diameter which were replaced with 14mm in later 1.6, 1.8 and 2 liter fiat twincams.
those valve guides are the same as in 1301cc engine from 128 and 1.3 diesel from uno.

When you say NOS oversize pistons, which one should I look for? I mean, if I have to overbore the cylinders and the standard ones are 80mm, what measure should I look for? I've never seen (or searched actually) NOS oversize pistons for the 1.4L, can you please share some links or info about them? Maybe it depends on how much the machine shop is going to overbore?

NOS means New (from) Old Stock
you're looking for a set of pstons made in 60's or 70's, preferably fiat ricambi originali or Mondial, borgo nova etc.
they should come in a set, with pins and piston rings.
most likely you'll need first oversize, 80.2mm or maybe second, 80.4mm
if you don't find first oversize, or second is cheaper, machine shop will overbore th eblock to whatever sized pistons you supply them.
if you can only find standard size pistons, block can be re-sleeved, bringing it back to original size. even then, i'd reccomend changing the pistons anyway.
wether you go for overbore or re-sleeve, it's a matter of cost of new pistons VS cost of machining.

[RCSquadraCorse]

Man, ALL the gaskets of the engine a part from the exhaust one have some silicone!!! It's a nightmare! Luckily enough I removed all the stuff from the intake manifold using a small putty knife and a hammer so everything should be free. Problem is the rust inside that hole... I've already hammered in different directions with no luck, and I'm afraid that the PO already did some small dents on the head (that's why he probably used the silicone). Will try later with some sort of wedges. I'm just afraid to tear the threaded part inside the head ATM...

Thanks for the info about the valve guides, I will provide them to the machine shop so they will put them on for me and thank you also for clearing up the piston dimensions. I was confused if I had to use .2 or .4mm oversize, I really hope to find them somewhere because the spare parts shop where I use to go doesn't have them lised... so, if I've understand correctly, .2 is better than .4 and I have to give them to the machine shop so they can rebore the block, right? As I said before, I'm not in a hurry so I will take my time to look for oversized pistons, it should be cheaper than doing a re-sleeve.

Once I will have everything dismantled on a table I will snap some images and I will ask again if I will need more parts to do the job. Hopefully I will be able to remove the crankshaft with no issues because the manual says that I need a special tool but I don't even understand what it's that for! Lol!

Thanks again for taking your time to reply man, I owe you a beer (or two )!

[djape1977]

i'll take you up on that offer sometime, but not this year. i'm off to greece in couple days

[fiatfactory]

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