Lets talk about painting your car...

[rodman]

Most of us that decides to take on the task of painting our cars and restoring them have a few things to consider. First off let me give a little history on the Fiat coming to "America" that most of you may or may not be aware of.

So what's the deal with Fiat's poor reputation for quality? "In 1977, production was quite high," "They were shipping cars to America on the outside decks of ships. They'd get exposed to salt air and seawater on the trip. The problem only got worse because the dealers wouldn't wash the undercarriages and let them dry. Instead, they undercoated right over the salt, and the results were disastrous."

The 124 was born from Fiat's most versatile platform. From its roots came a coupe, a convertible, a sedan; it even lived on in perpetuity as the Russian Lada. The Spider and the coupe were both derived from the sedan, which was introduced in 1963. The 124 Spider was first introduced at the Turin Auto Show in 1966, after which it went on sale as a 1967 model.

As I was doing my Hood modification I was sanding and notice as I remove the paint,primer, there was some spots that had rust under, this was invisible cause the primer and paint was covering it up on out the outside it showed no visible signs of "Rust". So when you are painting and doing body work, please take notice if there is any Rust under your paint.

If left alone your new paint job will show sings of rust in a few years and will have to have it fixed cause money and time that should of been caught when you were restoring your car.... Sorry this was so long winded.....

Rodman


First two photos visible signs of Rust..


Untitled by fiatcs2000, on Flickr


Untitled by fiatcs2000, on Flickr

End results, I still have body work to do too the hood, as there are nicks and dings in the hood.



Untitled by fiatcs2000, on Flickr

[dmwhiteoak]

Rodman, did you sand the entire car or blast it? I have had one shop tell me that to paint over the factory paint would cause the new to bubble up. I had another tell me the factory paint was the best primer. Which is it in your opinion?

[rodman]

Rodman, did you sand the entire car or blast it? I have had one shop tell me that to paint over the factory paint would cause the new to bubble up. I had another tell me the factory paint was the best primer. Which is it in your opinion?

Well as you can see in the photos, The rust spots were under the primer and paint and not showing through yet. If its painted over I would clearly think within a few years they would make it too the top and show through your new paint job. What the problem is the body shop have no ideal how these cars made there Journey from over sea`s. Which I already stated they were exposed to the ocean and elements as they traveled over. Now seeing the hood I feel its my duty to strip all the paint and primer I have already put on the car to bear metal.

Now lets refer too "Prep" for new paint. These procedures do not apply to a complete restoration. A complete restoration should be examined carefully before repairs are carried out, and in most cases media blasting or other mechanical/chemical stripping will be necessary.

1) First, determine if the car or panel needs to be completely refinished, or if it can be resprayed.
If you have already determined which route you are going to take, skip to Step 2.
If you are performing a complete paint job or basic restoration, it is best to strip the vehicle in most cases.
If the paint job is relatively new, and is only 1 layer (original paint, or stripped and repainted), sometimes it can be sanded and resprayed or primed/sealed and resprayed after proper prep. I still feel the best and longest lasting paint jobs are complete refinishing from bare metal or factory primer on up.

2) After you have determined what level of paint job you want to perform, now is the time to prep the body.
Before sanding anything, wash the vehicle with soapy water, preferably warm water. Use Dawn dish soap or a high quality non-wax auto shampoo.
Pay special attention to wheel wells, gaps between panels, cowls or anyplace dirt can hide. Often nooks and crannies are overlooked and dirt/grease can work its way up onto the panel or paint will lift around the edges of the panel.
Be very thorough with your washing, this is one of the most important steps!

3) Remove trim, door handles, and mask off openings or headlight/tail light cutouts.
The more trim, handles and other parts you remove from the vehicle - the cleaner and longer lasting the paint job. If you mask off handles and trim, the edges of the paint or clear can lift in time. Once the edges have started to lift, it’s a matter of time before chipping and peeling happens in these areas. Masking off these parts can be done, but don't plan on a very long lasting finish.

4) Wipe the car or panel down with Wax and Grease remover. The most efficient way is to load your W & G remover into a solvent sprayer. This makes it easy to spray your panel with solvent and wipe it up with a fresh shop towel.
Another way is to soak one paper shop towel with solvent, wipe the panel, and dry it with another new shop towel while the panel is still wet. This way you will not be spreading contaminants and are sure to remove them.
It is very important not to use only one solvent soaked paper shop towel. Do not use red shop rags or other cloth rags that can contain contaminants. A 2nd dry paper shop towel should be used. Wiping in 1 direction also makes a difference in cleanliness in the final passes.
Let the solvents flash (dry) for at least 20-30 minutes before priming or painting any panel! Solvent pop or other adhesion issues can occur if proper flash time is not followed.
The W & G remover will generally remove most automotive type waxes, grease, motor oil, petroleum products, and most silicone's.
Some painters follow W & G remover with an organic solvent like glass cleaner or isopropyl (rubbing) alcohol. This removes contaminants such as finger prints, bugs, and certain oils.
Alcohol or glass cleaner (ammonia + water) is for organics - tree sap, bird poop, bugs, finger oil, natural oils in car waxes such as Zymol.

5)Sand the body.
If prepping bare metal, P80 grit paper on a DA sander works great. Blow off the panel and wipe it down (as outlined above) before priming. Then you can apply 2 coats of epoxy primer, followed by 2-3 coats of high build primer. If prepping existing paint or primer, P180 on a DA works well, followed by 2-3 coats of high build primer. If you are planning on sealing the primer or paint, P320 grit is usually adequate.
Personally, I don't use a sealer and just final sand high build primer before color. Sealer is added insurance if you are painting over an unknown material or layers of primer/filler that has been feathered and is showing through.

6)Apply your primer or paint.
Leave the area and come back to inspect your work later. Otherwise you will just be poisoning yourself in the fumes and temped to pick at your work before its ready.

Some of these steps may seem like overkill, however the extra time taken here can save you $100's or 1000’s in wasted materials if you have a contamination or adhesion issue.

These are my 6 basic steps.


Rodman

[rodman]

Just a little history on "Rust:


Rust is the common name for a very common compound, iron oxide. Iron oxide, the chemical Fe2O3, is common because iron combines very readily with oxygen -- so readily, in fact, that pure iron is only rarely found in nature. Iron (or steel) rusting is an example of corrosion -- an electrochemical process involving an anode (a piece of metal that readily gives up electrons), an electrolyte (a liquid that helps electrons move) and a cathode (a piece of metal that readily accepts electrons). When a piece of metal corrodes, the electrolyte helps provide oxygen to the anode. As oxygen combines with the metal, electrons are liberated. When they flow through the electrolyte to the cathode, the metal of the anode disappears, swept away by the electrical flow or converted into metal cations in a form such as rust.
For iron to become iron oxide, three things are required: iron, water and oxygen. Here's what happens when the three get together:
When a drop of water hits an iron object, two things begin to happen almost immediately. First, the water, a good electrolyte, combines with carbon dioxide in the air to form a weak carbonic acid, an even better electrolyte. As the acid is formed and the iron dissolved, some of the water will begin to break down into its component pieces -- hydrogen and oxygen. The free oxygen and dissolved iron bond into iron oxide, in the process freeing electrons. The electrons liberated from the anode portion of the iron flow to the cathode, which may be a piece of a metal less electrically reactive than iron, or another point on the piece of iron itself.
The chemical compounds found in liquids like acid rain, seawater and the salt-loaded spray from snow-belt roads make them better electrolytes than pure water, allowing their presence to speed the process of rusting on iron and other forms of corrosion on other metals.

I use evaporust ( http://www.evaporust.com/evaporust.html ... nQod5RAAyw ) once the car is down to bear metal to clean the car. as you can see from the link above it is is utilized by the U.S. Army, U.S. Navy, U.S. Air Force, FBI, NATO, Government Contractors, Engine Builders, Auto Enthusiasts, Gunsmiths, Forensic Labs, OEM’s, Farmers, Antique Restorers and more.

[dmwhiteoak]

Very well layed out. My paint is original and no rust spots. The hood does have some cracking in the paint and will need to go to bare metal. I really didn't want to have to strip the entire car. I have several dings here and there to address and will definantly strip all handles and trim. If I can get 10 years out of the paint job I will be happy. I do drive it year round but stays garaged at home. I noticed you were painting your door jams outside. Your not concerned about dust and other trash floating in the air? I believe me and a buddy will paint mine in a makeshift booth in my shop. I don't want overspray on my stuff. What type of paint are you using? Sorry for the long post but you did want to talk paint.

[rodman]

Very well layed out. My paint is original and no rust spots. The hood does have some cracking in the paint and will need to go to bare metal. I really didn't want to have to strip the entire car. I have several dings here and there to address and will definantly strip all handles and trim. If I can get 10 years out of the paint job I will be happy. I do drive it year round but stays garaged at home. I noticed you were painting your door jams outside. Your not concerned about dust and other trash floating in the air? I believe me and a buddy will paint mine in a makeshift booth in my shop. I don't want overspray on my stuff. What type of paint are you using? Sorry for the long post but you did want to talk paint.

I had plastic laid down and It was done on a clam day ( no wind ). I use a Single-stage, Two-component.

I chosen the that type of paint , but you will need too decided what spraying you will want to do, you may have a couple more options: One- or two-part? Single-stage or basecoat/ clearcoat?

One- or two-part (or -component) is also referred to as 1K or 2K, and it simply means that the paint either does or does not require an activator to dry. One-part products are ready to spray-they may need to be diluted with a solvent, sometimes referred to as a reducer or thinner, to flow through the spray gun properly, but they will dry on their own. Usually one-part paints are not used to repaint an entire car. Nearly all aerosol-can paints are one-part, as are One Shot pinstriping enamels and specialty products like Eastwood's Chassis Black.

For the guy on a real tight budget, you can get a gallon of automotive paint for $35 (( dont suggest that )
Two-part products need an activator, sometimes referred to as a hardener, to stimulate the chemical reaction that causes the components of the paint to cross-link and bond to the surface of the car. I refer to this chemical reaction as "drying," though it really is not drying in the sense of evaporating. Unactivated two-part paint will not dry on its own and therefore has a longer shelf life than one-part paint. You can leave your car in a 2K primer and not worry about the sheet metal rusting from the inside out.

Single-stage paint dries to a glossy finish and does not need a clear coat, whereas the base coat, or color coat, of a base coat/clear-coat (BC/CC) system dries to a matte or semigloss finish. The subsequent coats of clear paint are what make it shine. Which one is better? In terms of quality, both are good; it just depends on what color you want. If you want a basic red, black, yellow, or whatever, you can save yourself some time and money by using a single-stage paint-you will not need to clear-coat it. If you want a metallic finish, there are some available in single-stage, but you may be better off with a BC/CC system. The extra layer of clear is added protection against scratches and chips, and it allows for more wet-sanding for an ultrasmooth gloss. If you're thinking about something wilder like a metal flake or pearl, you must use a BC/CC system because the metal flake and pearl treatments are sprayed in between the color and clear coat. Since this is a two-part paint, it needs to be activated. In this case, the mix ratio of mine was 9:1:1 ( 9 parts paint, 1 part activator, 1 part reducer .

So those are the basics to arm yourself with before going to the paint store.

[dom]

Rodman, did you sand the entire car or blast it? I have had one shop tell me that to paint over the factory paint would cause the new to bubble up. I had another tell me the factory paint was the best primer. Which is it in your opinion?

The factory paint was air dry lacquer or enamel which means it does not get as hard as paint used today which uses a chemical hardener. The result isthat its best to remove all the old stuff since you want a hard foundation else the new paint may soften the old paint and cause problems with the finish of thenew paint. But you can still get a nice finish if you leave the old stuff on and use a good two part primer on top of it before paint. The old paint does sand well but it does not make a good primer.

[dmwhiteoak]

Damn

[rodman]

Also Grounding the chassis will help reduce the amount of over spray by minimizing the static charges that build up in the paint and the body. Airflow through the hose makes a static charge that is transfered to the body via the paint spray. Subsequent coats are repealed by the static charge induced by the previous coat causing increased over spray as lighter particles do not go the the surface.
When spraying lacquer's the reduced over spray was very evident as was the reduced dusting on the painted surface. It also seemed to polish out quicker. On Enamels the reduction was noticeable, but the main thing was orange peel just didn't happen. My experience.

[azruss]

one of the rap about old lacquer is how brittle they were. would polish to a superb shine but would chip easily. The issue with old Enamels were they are sensitive to agressive solvents like acetone and lacquer thinner. The paint would crinkle in a very obvious way. In the early 70's they came up with acrylic enamel, which added a hardener. This was a major improvement in enamels and basically eliminate the use of lacquers. About the same time came Imron, the first of the polyurethane paints. Used on trucks because it stayed soft and thus didnt chip easily. the quality was not good enough for automotive. When sanding my 80, all the paint was factory. I used lacquer thinner on it without any lifting. this told me the paint was sufficiently cured to not be solvent sensitive. It also showed no signs of crazing or lifting except where i had rust. I would say half the car is still has some factory paint on it. The car was completely primered with a 2 part epoxy. I am very impressed with this stuff. Sits out in the arizona sun for 2 years and still in great shape. can take a real beating without chipping. Should be laying down color in a month. (i'm sending it to a pro as i'm old school and not up to speed with HVLP).

[rodman]

one of the rap about old lacquer is how brittle they were. would polish to a superb shine but would chip easily. The issue with old Enamels were they are sensitive to agressive solvents like acetone and lacquer thinner. The paint would crinkle in a very obvious way. In the early 70's they came up with acrylic enamel, which added a hardener. This was a major improvement in enamels and basically eliminate the use of lacquers. About the same time came Imron, the first of the polyurethane paints. Used on trucks because it stayed soft and thus didnt chip easily. the quality was not good enough for automotive. When sanding my 80, all the paint was factory. I used lacquer thinner on it without any lifting. this told me the paint was sufficiently cured to not be solvent sensitive. It also showed no signs of crazing or lifting except where i had rust. I would say half the car is still has some factory paint on it. The car was completely primered with a 2 part epoxy. I am very impressed with this stuff. Sits out in the arizona sun for 2 years and still in great shape. can take a real beating without chipping. Should be laying down color in a month. (i'm sending it to a pro as i'm old school and not up to speed with HVLP).

Those spots that are in the two photos above were not lifted through the paint as well, they would be coming through at some point. It just concerns me that they are there and what could happen down the road if not dealt with now.