Valve Adjustment Struggle

[blurple124]

Hello FIAT friends,

I finally had some time to do a valve adjustment, which I suspected might solve the valve-noise issue I had been having. Time I had, success, I did not.

I am really struggling with removing the shims - there doesn't seem to be enough clearance to get them out. I put the valve tool in place when the cam lobe is depressing the bucket, then rotate the cam lobe opposite the bucket and I am then able to lift the shim nearly out of the bucket, but when I try to pull it out, there is not enough room - it won't budge.

As far as I know, I am not doing anything wrong, but it doesn't seem like the tool I have is holding the bucket down very well. the tool gets pushed up by the bucket as the lobe disengages.

One thought I had was that there simply isn't enough room to remove the shims. My clearances were incredibly tight:

Intake (supposed to be 0.017" - 0.019"):

1: 0.009"
2: 0.013"
3: 0.015"
4: 0.014"

Exhaust (supposed to be 0.019" - 0.021"):

1: 0.014"
2: 0.016"
3: 0.012"
4: 0.016"

(No wonder I had valve train noise)

Help on this would certainly be appreciated. What am I doing wrong?

[azruss]

there is a lot of valve travel, so i wouldnt expect a tight gap to create the problem. make sure the edge of the tool is not catching the shim and hanging it up. are you able to lift the shim at its center where it is closest to where the tool catches the cup. What tool are you using. look to see whether the tool is holding the cup at nearly the same position as the cam lobe.

[blurple124]

This is the tool that I am using: http://images.marketplaceadvisor.channe ... m-tool.jpg

It isn't holding the shim down, because I can use a pick to lift the shim up out of the bucket, enough to get a needle-nose pliers around it. When I try to pull it out, it gets wedged between the bucket and the back side of the cam lobe.


To me, it seems obvious that the bucket isn't being held down enough (hardly at all), and I am wondering if I am simply not going about it correctly. The tool is designed specifically for the job, so I do not entirely understand.

[RoyBatty]

The experience I have had with my Spider leads me to believe that the noise you have is not from your valve clearances as you reported them.
Noisy valves are that way from the clearances being too big. Because the cam lobe is coming around from the base circle and slapping the follower. Instead of the follower just gliding along the cam lobe profile.
Have you isolated the noise to one side or the other? Or is it coming from both sides?
I had valve noise from my intake cam tower last summer that would not go away no matter how tight I set my clearances.
I had to change out the cam tower, installed the cam and all the associated parts into another housing I had. Reset my clearances and the noise went away.
Good Luck.

Also,
I have a similar valve adjustment tool.
I use it in this manner.
1) Rotate the cam lobe so that it compresses FULLY the shim bucket you are working on.
2) Place the tool in position from the outer edge of the cam housing and hold it there while you rotate the cam lobe back up towards the center of the engine. Continue doing so until the lobe is almost in contact with the tool. Keep in mind you may have to manipulate the tool to keep it in the optimal position as you rotate the lobe up to get the best compression of the shim bucket from the tool.
3) Use a scribe and a magnet to finagle the shim from position and make the appropriate adjustment.
4) After insertion of the correct size shim, rotate the cam lobe away from the tool until it can be extracted from its potition. You may have to "pop" it out of position depending on how well the tool seated.

[BEEK]

i agree with the measurments that you have stated those will not cause valve train noise

[blurple124]

Hmmm.... the noise seems to become more prevalent as the engine warms up.

It seems loudest on the exhaust side, though it is difficult to tell.


Regardless of this, I still need to figure out how to change these shims, because they are not correct. It seems to me that the tool is not holding the bucket down in the manner it ought to be. I am going to try fabricating a tool that will hold the bucket down a bit further.

I would really rather not have to replace a cam tower to rid myself of this noise.

[Danq]

I had what I thought was valve noise on the exhaust side. I checked my clearances and they were all on the tight side of the tolerances. It turned out the exhaust gasket had failed. There was a build up of rust on the flange of the cast manifold.

[TulsaSpider]

Your sound could be as simple as an exhaust leak??

[tonygraynfla]

RoyBatty is right. If your valve clearances are within spec (even a little too tight) they shouldn't be causing valve train noise. As TulsaSpider suggested, check the tightness of your exhaust manifold nuts (or bolts ... I can't remember which it has) or for a bad gasket. If your valve tolerances are as you specified, you are probably hearing an exhaust leak which can sound similar.

[RoyBatty]

As l mentioned before, changing the cam tower flxed my problem.
My valve noise also got louder as the engine warmed up,
l think this was due to a crack in the housing that allowed the cam to push itself away from the shim buckets.
You could have a similar situation.

[blurple124]

I finally took the time to upload a video of this noise to youtube. Perhaps those of you who are more versed in the sounds of this engine can help me out.

The noise is much more audible from 13 seconds on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bII6L_R5 ... e=youtu.be


Thoughts?

[majicwrench]

Well, I tried the video, my computer does not always do a good job, I could just barely hear anything, like I said, likley my computer. But I did notice a plug wire moving around suspiciously, make sure your spark plugs are all tight, they will make noise if loose.
Lke others have said, the tight clearances you have in your opening post will not cause noise. Might be nice to fix em tho, but they ain't causin noise.
Keith

[CynicAl]

In an earlier life, when as a "kid" I had my first Fiat (a brand new 1978 131, with the same engine as a 124), I ordered/purchased the valve adjustment tool from the dealer. After jerking me around for months, they finally delivered the tool. When I attempted to use it, the "jaws" would spread under pressure and I had a problem removing the shim exactly as you describe. The parts guy at the dealership, was less than sympathetic. After some argument I got him to go into the shop and show me the tool that they use for this purpose. It looked similar in shape to the one they sold me, but was obviously of higher quality workmanship and material (by comparison, mine looked like a 9th grade shop project).

He held the two tools side by side and declared they were identical, at which point I grabbed the shop tool and took two steps back, saying that if they are identical, I'll take THIS one.

I still have that tool and it still works, now on my 1982 2000 Spyder. My advice would be be sure the tool you have is not flexing under pressure and not sufficiently holding the bucket down to leave enough room to lift out the shim.

Al

[blurple124]

Thank you for the advice!

Thanks to the video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM9Ow5Qa_oc
I have discovered that this, indeed, was the struggle I was having. I have made tools for this job, but what I have not yet had is a pry bar that can compress the tappet bucket before I inserted the valve tool to hold it in place. I have since ordered the proper supplies and will try this again once I have time.

From what I have been told, though, even a good valve adjustment won't solve my noise problem. I have not gotten a chance to hear many of these engines run (except for youtube) so I am not sure how abnormal it is. The chatter doesn't sound right to me and I don't want to damage anything internally, so I want to be sure that it is okay before driving around.


The noise seems to be quiet when the engine is cold, then as the engine warms up, the noise continues to get louder and louder. After a 20 minute drive into town, I was able to hear the racket from inside the cabin. Any ideas on how to diagnose this would really go a long way.


Thanks to all!

[seabeelt]

Nice video