The Saga Continues...

[digitech]

Some of you may remember all of the issues I had when I got my newly rebuilt engine put back together late last year and into the early part of this year. Without re-hashing all of that, let me just say that I finally pulled the head assembly back off the car and shipped it to Jon Logan, betting that all of my issues lay in the head that had been built up by Paeco.

Even though Jon was just slammed with work, he was able to get my head broken down/measured/evaluated and just found a whole host of problems which I won't go into just now but suffice to say, he finally had to source another head assembly for me that he rebuilt to better than stock. He installed my 40/80 cam on the exhaust side and set all of my valve clearances for me as well.

I am just now getting it all back together. Today I was able to start the engine for the first time and although all of my previous issues have been fixed now I have another, new problem. Something is up with my timing that I just can't figure. I set #1 piston fully up on compression with the timing mark correctly aligned; I then lined up my camshafts with the correct marks and installed the head on the engine. After setting the aux shaft into the correct position, I installed the belt, rotated everybody around two turns and rechecked my alignments - all was perfect. Just to be sure, I took it around a few more times.

Next, with all of my marks lined up, I set the distributor to point at #4 after it had engaged the gear and seated the distributor. But, when I got the car started ( and it cranked really slow), I had to move the distributor a bit to get the best running. When I checked the timing with a light, the mark was at the 2:00 position. This is looking at the pulley head on, saying the timing marks are to the left at about the 10:30-11:00 position. Bringing the timing back to agree with even the TDC mark makes the engine run better and faster but then it doesn't want to start. Putting the timing back out to the other way makes the engine start a lot better but it doesn't want to half run, to the point of where it backfires through the carb upon any kind of acceleration. Right now, I have the timing set to about 1:30 which is a compromise between getting the engine to start and run reasonably well with no backfiring and good throttle response.

What gives???

[So Cal Mark]

don't you have timing marks? What's with 1:30?

[digitech]

Yes, I have timing marks. I am trying to relate where my crankshaft pulley mark is going to. It is difficult to do that for someone who can't actually see it so I said to visualize the actual timing pointer marks to be at 10:30-11:00.

[manoa matt]

If you have a 2L the timing marks will be at the 10:30-11:00 position, but if you have a 1.8L the timing marks will be at the 2:00 position.

[digitech]

Hmmmmm, kind of strange. I have the 2L and of course, when I brought #1 to TDC, the crank pulley aligned to the 10:30-11:00 position but it's wanting to run at the 1.8L alignment point, i.e. 2:00. Needless to say, I'm stumped.

[narfire]

Your right in that the 2L the mark on the crank should be at the 10-11 mark when #4 is tdc. I'd think you would have the pointer affair on the 2L block just below the water pump. The biggest pointer is 0 deg and then 5 and 10 btdc. With that squared away you have the holes in the cam wheels lined up with the raised marker on the front of the cam towers, (crank goes around twice to one cam rotation )
Engine is all lined up then the rotor is lined up to strike #4 pin inside the cap. I found there is a very slight line on the back of the dist that when lined up with the rear of the rotor, the #4 pin is just the right spot.
Giver a crank and see what happens.
Chris

[lanciahf]

If you are using 40/80 cams you need adjustable cam pulleys to correctly time the engine.
http://www.fiatspider.com/f08/viewtopic ... &sk=t&sd=a

Guy Croft did a nice write up on how to adjust cams. Check his site.
http://guy-croft.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=14

[majicwrench]

Gonna be a little blunt, clock position is no way to set timing. You need to be dealing with 10deg BTDC etc. If you do not know the degrees you know nothing.

[rlux4]

Wow. That's blunt all right. To take the edge off of "you know nothing" I'd add: "about the exact timing".
Ron

[majicwrench]

Forgive me :0

[rlux4]

I was just thinking yours was one of those sentences that reads a whole lot different than it types out.
Ron

[vandor]

Where is the mark on the crank when #1 pistons is at TDC? Almost sounds like you have a 1800 crankpulley, but then the cam timing would be off too, and I'm not sure it would run with it being that far off.

I'd pull the #1 plug, rotate the engine until you see the piston coming up, then put a screwdriver in there so you can see when the piston is at TDC. Now check where the mark on the crank is, at 10:30 or 2 o'clock. If it's a 2 o'clock, then you have an 1800 crank pulley.

[digitech]

Thanks vandor, pretty sure I got all of that squared away as I installed the head but I could have made a mistake in my haste - I'll recheck. This IS a replacement pulley I'm running, which I got from a member with the understanding it was a 2l - perhaps a mistake was made. I didn't think they were interchangeable but what do I know?

I greatly appreciate any and all help I can get - that's what the forum is all about but sometimes there appears to be a lack of communication. I know how to install a timing belt, how to use a timing light, know what my timing is, know where the pointer is, etc. I was only trying to paint a picture of what is happening to aid in a diagnosis when you can't actually see where my crank pulley mark is going to, hence the "clockface". Some seem to get it and some of you don't. The 2L pointer is stationed on the left side at about the 10:30-11:00 position. When I time my engine to the 5btdc mark, the engine runs very well but with some put-putting throught the exhaust; it will not, however start in that position nor will it run very well at the proper 10btdc mark, wanting to backfire through the carb on any kind of acceleration.

However, if I swing the distributor so the crank pulley mark moves toward the 1:30-2:00 position, the engine starts readily enough and runs smoothly enough but slower - so that I have to add a little idle screw.

Going back out now to recheck TDC.

[FiatMac]

Is it possible that it is something as simple as miss-wiring between the distributor and the plug? Those positions, 10-11 o'clock and 1-2 o'clock, are 90 degrees apart which is the crank spacing.

[maytag]

I know how to install a timing belt, how to use a timing light, know what my timing is, know where the pointer is, etc. I was only trying to paint a picture of what is happening to aid in a diagnosis when you can't actually see where my crank pulley mark is going to, hence the "clockface". Some seem to get it and some of you don't. The 2L pointer is stationed on the left side at about the 10:30-11:00 position. When I time my engine to the 5btdc mark, the engine runs very well but with some put-putting throught the exhaust; it will not, however start in that position nor will it run very well at the proper 10btdc mark, wanting to backfire through the carb on any kind of acceleration.

However, if I swing the distributor so the crank pulley mark moves toward the 1:30-2:00 position, the engine starts readily enough and runs smoothly enough but slower - so that I have to add a little idle screw.

Going back out now to recheck TDC.

Ok, so I admit I'm one that doesn't get it.... what are you talking about, exactly?
Are you suggesting that you suspect you may have the wrong crank pulley, and therefore the timing mark on it is in the wrong location, relative to the pointer on your block?
if that is the case, then line all the marks up, and put a new timing mark on the pulley where TDC / 0d shows with the pointer you have.
this seems simple. Am I still not getting it? I can't think of any OTHER reason you would be referring to the clock face, rather than to *dbtdc.