I'm stumped. I have tried a Crane converted S144CAY dual point dizzy, and an S144 single point, and I get the same advance range with either - about 30-32 degrees.
It's my understanding that the IDFs like about 10-14 degrees BTDC at idle to work right, but that would result in maximum advance of 40 to 46 degrees. Is that too much maximum advance?
My engine is a 1756 with 9.8 CR, 40-80-80-40 10mm lift cams, and the 40IDFs have 34mm venturis with velocity stacks. What should the advance be at idle, and at WOT?
Could I use two of the stiffer springs with the slotted loop at one end to make for a narrower range?
Distributor Timing with the IDFs
-
engineerted
- Posts: 531
- Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:57 pm
- Your car is a: 1974 124 spider
- Location: Farmington Hills, MI
IDF & Timing
I don't understand your question? Are you haveing a problem with the idfs or with the distb?
Ted
1978 124 Spider, Complete Restoration
1974 Fiat 124 F Production Race car
1978 124 Spider, Complete Restoration
1974 Fiat 124 F Production Race car
-
E Prod Racer
Ted,
Both - the problem is interrelated. In order to properly set the idle circuit on the IDFs, I need to put in 10-14 degrees BTDC at idle. If I do that, the maximum advance exceeds 40 degrees total. I'm believe exceeding about 36 degrees maximum advance is too much, but maybe I'm mistaken?
If I work the advance backwards, and set the maximum to be 36 degrees, then the advance at idle is 5 BTDC, and the idle circuit won't set. The car just won't idle strongly enough to set the individual idle screws according to the "lean best" method.
If the notion is to just set the timing at idle and not worry about maximum advance, then my question is answered. My race engine works best when the maximum advance is no more than 36 degrees - higher and it tends to overheat. The street engine is not built up nearly as much, and maybe the same rules don't apply - I don't know - I haven't had a street Spider since 1986.
Both - the problem is interrelated. In order to properly set the idle circuit on the IDFs, I need to put in 10-14 degrees BTDC at idle. If I do that, the maximum advance exceeds 40 degrees total. I'm believe exceeding about 36 degrees maximum advance is too much, but maybe I'm mistaken?
If I work the advance backwards, and set the maximum to be 36 degrees, then the advance at idle is 5 BTDC, and the idle circuit won't set. The car just won't idle strongly enough to set the individual idle screws according to the "lean best" method.
If the notion is to just set the timing at idle and not worry about maximum advance, then my question is answered. My race engine works best when the maximum advance is no more than 36 degrees - higher and it tends to overheat. The street engine is not built up nearly as much, and maybe the same rules don't apply - I don't know - I haven't had a street Spider since 1986.
-
So Cal Mark
Bill
in a somewhat related result, you may remember in a previous post I was discussing exhaust temp. I've found with the most recent car with a stock 1800 equipped with my exhaust and a 32/36 carb that more total advance lowered ex temps dramatically. I'm running 39 total deg on this engine now and perf is xlnt without any detonation
in a somewhat related result, you may remember in a previous post I was discussing exhaust temp. I've found with the most recent car with a stock 1800 equipped with my exhaust and a 32/36 carb that more total advance lowered ex temps dramatically. I'm running 39 total deg on this engine now and perf is xlnt without any detonation
-
engineerted
- Posts: 531
- Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:57 pm
- Your car is a: 1974 124 spider
- Location: Farmington Hills, MI
Bill, I did some research on mira, and what i found was very confusing, there are different types of dist.s out there, dual point early cars, Vacuum advanced carbed 1979 cars, and Vacuum advanced electroinic FI cars. so what distb. do you have? and what is different than your race car?
I do agree that the total advance should be around 36-38 degrees coming in at 3600 to 5000 rpm. If this is the only distb. you have and don't like the total advance and want to keep the 10-15 degree static advance you can limit the travel of the advance weights by altering the stops, (welding, pins, etc.) but this requires you to take the whole thing apart.
If you got 2-3 hours to screw off at work, (things are realy slow here) do a search ar Mira.
I do agree that the total advance should be around 36-38 degrees coming in at 3600 to 5000 rpm. If this is the only distb. you have and don't like the total advance and want to keep the 10-15 degree static advance you can limit the travel of the advance weights by altering the stops, (welding, pins, etc.) but this requires you to take the whole thing apart.
If you got 2-3 hours to screw off at work, (things are realy slow here) do a search ar Mira.
Ted
1978 124 Spider, Complete Restoration
1974 Fiat 124 F Production Race car
1978 124 Spider, Complete Restoration
1974 Fiat 124 F Production Race car
-
engineerted
- Posts: 531
- Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:57 pm
- Your car is a: 1974 124 spider
- Location: Farmington Hills, MI
Update
Bill I found this at Mira.
The S144C has a max centrifugal advance of 31°. Fiat recommended
5° static timing timing for a total of 36° on the USA 1600 sport
with a champion N6Y plug. If your advance is maxing correctly,
and you are starting at 10° static (not running), then you are a
little high. Keep an ear open for pinging.
Pete Angel
Colorado Springs, CO 80922
The S144C has a max centrifugal advance of 31°. Fiat recommended
5° static timing timing for a total of 36° on the USA 1600 sport
with a champion N6Y plug. If your advance is maxing correctly,
and you are starting at 10° static (not running), then you are a
little high. Keep an ear open for pinging.
Pete Angel
Colorado Springs, CO 80922
Ted
1978 124 Spider, Complete Restoration
1974 Fiat 124 F Production Race car
1978 124 Spider, Complete Restoration
1974 Fiat 124 F Production Race car
-
mdrburchette
- Posts: 5754
- Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 5:49 am
- Your car is a: 1972 Fiat 124 Sport
- Location: Winston-Salem, NC
-
E Prod Racer
Thanks for the responses.
Mark,
I will keep that in mind. At altitude, a little more max advance is OK.
Ted,
The racer has Electromotive crank-fire ignition. There is no distributor. I even dug up a 1438 exhaust cam box without the cam driven opening (one less place for a leak..). The setting of the E-Motive is simple, and set with potentiometers, with a volt meter. Set it at idle, and set the maximum. As long as the crank wheel is properly sinc'ed (the hard part of the install), then 39 degrees max advance reads .039 VDC on the volt meter - slick - and much easier than this distributor problem. The racer is the only Spider I have had for the last 10 years, until now with the project Spider.
Ted, Denise,
I have about 6-7 different distributors in my private FIAT parts stash. I really think that the S144 is the most simple,and robust, so I will try to make that one work. I will try to get what I want (10-12 static, 36-39 max advance) by first swapping out different springs. If I have to, I will resort to altering the stops.
Denise,
My EP racer has the E-Motive because I couldn't get any dizzy (either block mounted, or cam tower mounted) to live an entire race - they spun, or shook themselves to pieces. I hope you don't run into the same problems with your racer. The last dizzy I used on a race motor was the S144, which I used on my much milder ITC 1608 Spider. It worked great, but wore quickly (I used up 3 S144s in the 10 years I raced that car). I just can't remember what I did to them to make them work! So, I'll have to figure that out all over again - feel like such a Geezer....the memory is the first thing to go...
Mark,
I will keep that in mind. At altitude, a little more max advance is OK.
Ted,
The racer has Electromotive crank-fire ignition. There is no distributor. I even dug up a 1438 exhaust cam box without the cam driven opening (one less place for a leak..). The setting of the E-Motive is simple, and set with potentiometers, with a volt meter. Set it at idle, and set the maximum. As long as the crank wheel is properly sinc'ed (the hard part of the install), then 39 degrees max advance reads .039 VDC on the volt meter - slick - and much easier than this distributor problem. The racer is the only Spider I have had for the last 10 years, until now with the project Spider.
Ted, Denise,
I have about 6-7 different distributors in my private FIAT parts stash. I really think that the S144 is the most simple,and robust, so I will try to make that one work. I will try to get what I want (10-12 static, 36-39 max advance) by first swapping out different springs. If I have to, I will resort to altering the stops.
Denise,
My EP racer has the E-Motive because I couldn't get any dizzy (either block mounted, or cam tower mounted) to live an entire race - they spun, or shook themselves to pieces. I hope you don't run into the same problems with your racer. The last dizzy I used on a race motor was the S144, which I used on my much milder ITC 1608 Spider. It worked great, but wore quickly (I used up 3 S144s in the 10 years I raced that car). I just can't remember what I did to them to make them work! So, I'll have to figure that out all over again - feel like such a Geezer....the memory is the first thing to go...
-
pastaroni
So Bill, why is it you're playing with these silly distributors still? 
I was having the same problems as you, to me its not worth the frustration of having to fiddle with those things all the time, worry about oil leaks, plus if you change your cam timing you have to retime the whole thing.. argh! I vote distributorless. 
Check out megajolt if you don't want to spend a ton of moolah with electromotive again.
Happy motoring,
-Jason Miller
I was having the same problems as you, to me its not worth the frustration of having to fiddle with those things all the time, worry about oil leaks, plus if you change your cam timing you have to retime the whole thing.. argh! I vote distributorless. Check out megajolt if you don't want to spend a ton of moolah with electromotive again. Happy motoring,
-Jason Miller
-
E Prod Racer
Late reply - sorry.
Jason,
The Stradale project is about reproducing - visually - the real thing, so a distributor is the way I'm going. By the way, I have gotten the issues resolved with the distributor by using one of my S-144 single pointers (converted with Crane), and not the S-144CAY dual point unit. If they are converted from points to the Crane, they are pretty good.
Still like the simplicity of the crank-fire, though.
Jason,
The Stradale project is about reproducing - visually - the real thing, so a distributor is the way I'm going. By the way, I have gotten the issues resolved with the distributor by using one of my S-144 single pointers (converted with Crane), and not the S-144CAY dual point unit. If they are converted from points to the Crane, they are pretty good.
Still like the simplicity of the crank-fire, though.