Near Completion with a paint horror story
Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:56 pm
Since the paint job on my Spider is finally coming to completion I thought I’d post pics I took yesterday and today. If anyone recalls from one of my earlier posts, this car was painted the wrong color.
My car is a 1974 Spider.
Mfg date 4/74 (found on driver’s door post).
My color code is #312 (found on passenger side firewall)
PPG color code 44870 (found on various sites)
The problem I ran into when I had the car painted was the Factory PPG color code formula for #312 (dark green - 44870) no longer existed in PPG’s data base. The paint vendor called PPG directly and after some research PPG came up with an alternate color code formula of 43848. The vendor was told the alt code would match the old formula and thus the paint was ordered. When the paint arrived the paint can had a sample color spot on the lid which I used to match against my original paint. Upon comparison I noticed there was a very slight difference in color - it was lighter. Since I was comparing new paint against old weathered paint and the fact the paint spot did not have a clear coat on it, I went ahead and gave the go ahead. Well, the car was painted (5/27) and what began as a very slight difference ended up being magnified ten-fold when seeing it on the entire car. It’s very much like painting a room in your house. You know, you choose a really nice color from those small 2x2 inch squares and then when the whole room is painted it ends up looking like an entirely different color. Well, that’s what happened in my case – the slight lighter difference ended up being NOT so slight. The end result was a much lighter shade of green than what I wanted. Another thing to consider is the clear coat has a yellow tint to it which can also change the over-all color. AND last but not least, when the paint is polished the color can have a tendency to also lighten up a bit producing yet again a different shade.
Some will chime in, “Why didn’t I just have the color matched instead of relying on the color code?” Well, that’s all hind sight and after the fact now. My thinking was if I wanted the exact OEM color, “How could I go wrong if I used the color code off the car?” One would think they should have been the same don’t you think? What I should have done was;
1. Order the color off the OEM Color Code
2. Sent a color sample along for matching
3. Had the shop do a color test and paint something for me to compare.
Some other valuable advice - For those who have body shops paint their cars rather than restoration shops, one thing to consider is the type of paint used. Most body shops use “water based paint” unless they know or are asked to use something different. The shop I used uses “water based paint” on repairs and entire paint jobs on post 1980 model cars. When painting Classic Type Cars usually pre ‘80’s they use PPG’s Acrylic Urethane paint.
So, the car was painted the wrong color and I was VERY unhappy to say the least. When comparing the color spot on the lid to the original color it was pretty darn close, but not exact. Though I kept my cool Julio the owner of the shop knew I was upset. I went home upset thinking what was I to do now... Mind you the body work and paint job was excellent, but it just wasn't the color I wanted. I wanted a classic color, not a sporty color....
The next day I came back to look at the color again. Julio saw how unhappy I was and said he himself couldn’t sleep last night because he kept thinking what he could do to make me happy. He said he knew how much Love I had put into the car coming down to the shop nearly every day for the past 4 months and over seeing everything about it. He said if I wanted the car repainted he would work with me to get the job done to my satisfaction. He told me to take some time and think about it and what I wanted to do.
I then asked Julio whether the vendor or PPG would provide any compensation for the color mixture error. He said "No" because I had given the go ahead on the color rather than send the paint back for a perfect match. Julio mentioned the we should have sent a sample color for PPG to match and then ran a paint sample. I told Julio though that would have been the best thing to do, I really shouldn’t have had to do that. I said, “If I requested the original factory color, that’s what I should have gotten.” Anyways, Julio said he could probably get the vendor to give us the correct color (paint) for free, but the clear alone was about $300 and then there’s the materials and labor. As far as repainting Julio said they would simply wet sand the car, repaint & clear coat it again. Knowing how much he pays his guys I probably could have gotten him to redo the car for $500 if that’s what I wanted. BUT, for how I wanted the car to look I knew a simple wet sand and repaint wouldn't have been satisfactory to me. Keep in mind as the car still had its original primer & color (though mostly sanded down), 2 coats of primer (feather/regular), 3 coats of paint and 3 coats of clear. I felt if they just wet sanded the new paint and repainted over it, that would have added an additional 3 coats of paint and another 3 coats of clear for a total of 16 coats of paint layered on the body! With that much paint any bump on to the body would cause the paint to chip and chip in chunks. Also due to the paint not having cured 100% (takes at least 3-5 months), on a hot day the first 3 coats of paint would emit gases and cause those tiny little pin like bubbles in the paint. Also, due to the over-all paint being so thick, in time the paint would produce spider cracks all over the car. I told Julio that if I were to have him repaint the car, the only way I would be satisfied would be to have the body taken all the way back down to the feather primer, re-blocked the body, re-prime it and re-sand with 320 before repainting. Since I knew it would have been a lot of work and much more than $500, I really had to rethink whether I wanted to spend the money or not.
Well, after stewing over it for 2 weeks I told Julio to just keep the car the color it was painted and finish it up. The day following Julio called me to say he told his guys to put a hold on finishing up the car and had written letters to his vendor, PPG, and to all concerned. He said again he couldn’t sleep the night before and just needed to do something to try to make things right. He thought he could build a case and get someone to cough up some kind of compensation so I could get the car re-painted correctly.
Another two weeks passed and since I hadn’t heard anything I called Julio to tell him if he hadn’t heard anything to just finish up the car as it was. I told Julio I was going on vacation and would like to pick up the car in 10 days. He said the car would be ready.
Now to the present – got back from vacation today (Tues) and went down to the shop at 2pm expecting to pick-up the car. Well, it wasn’t quite ready - Edwin my body guy was polishing the paint. He said he spent the last two days wet sanding and buffing out the car. As I looked over the car I mentioned to Edwin that the paint had a bit too much orange peel in it for me. Edwin said he had wet sanded it with 1500 paper and buffed it out, but it still had some orange peel because we had waited too long before buffing it out. He said normally they would buff a car out after 2 or 3 weeks after the car was painted. After that amount of time the paint surface of the clear would be dry enough to buff out to get a smooth surface. However, in most cases the clear is still a bit wet underneath and the orange peel would come back. Edwin said In my case since the car had sat for nearly 2 months after being painted, the clear had already hardened hard as a rock and a simple buffing wouldn't give that glass like appearance. He said what he would do is wet sand it with 1000 then 3000 grit and re-buff and it should look great after that.
I went back to see the car today (Wed), but it wasn’t in its spot. In its place was Edwin polishing the Cromodora wheel caps. He said he stayed until 8pm last night working on the car and even under coated the car and that it looked excellent. He said it’s out front getting the rims painted and that I should go see it. I went around the front to see the car and found it up on jack stands – and yes, it did look EXCELLENT! The under coating added a very nice touch to a freshly painted car. Edwin said once the wheels are dry and put back on the car he will install all the chrome, trims, lights, bumpers etc and re-buff the car once more to eliminate any swirl marks and wax it. Once the clean up crew gets the interior all cleaned out I could have the car back.
Updated: Sat 7/30 - Here's a pic of the car with its ORIGINAL color #312 - IMO much more Classic
Below are photos of the NEW paint job and under-coating.
Note: The color of the car in the photos below don't depict its actual color as my camera doesn't seem to do so -
UPDATE: Tues 7/27 - After viewing this posting go to Posting "FINALLY SHE'S HOME" to see the final result.
Today (Thurs 7/21) Chin Spoiler Installed
Nice Painted Wheels – Looks Brand New!
Clean Smooth Body Work and Paint
New Style Front Bumper Installed – see old front bumper next photo
’74 Over-rider Bumpers for CALIFORNIA
My car is a 1974 Spider.
Mfg date 4/74 (found on driver’s door post).
My color code is #312 (found on passenger side firewall)
PPG color code 44870 (found on various sites)
The problem I ran into when I had the car painted was the Factory PPG color code formula for #312 (dark green - 44870) no longer existed in PPG’s data base. The paint vendor called PPG directly and after some research PPG came up with an alternate color code formula of 43848. The vendor was told the alt code would match the old formula and thus the paint was ordered. When the paint arrived the paint can had a sample color spot on the lid which I used to match against my original paint. Upon comparison I noticed there was a very slight difference in color - it was lighter. Since I was comparing new paint against old weathered paint and the fact the paint spot did not have a clear coat on it, I went ahead and gave the go ahead. Well, the car was painted (5/27) and what began as a very slight difference ended up being magnified ten-fold when seeing it on the entire car. It’s very much like painting a room in your house. You know, you choose a really nice color from those small 2x2 inch squares and then when the whole room is painted it ends up looking like an entirely different color. Well, that’s what happened in my case – the slight lighter difference ended up being NOT so slight. The end result was a much lighter shade of green than what I wanted. Another thing to consider is the clear coat has a yellow tint to it which can also change the over-all color. AND last but not least, when the paint is polished the color can have a tendency to also lighten up a bit producing yet again a different shade.
Some will chime in, “Why didn’t I just have the color matched instead of relying on the color code?” Well, that’s all hind sight and after the fact now. My thinking was if I wanted the exact OEM color, “How could I go wrong if I used the color code off the car?” One would think they should have been the same don’t you think? What I should have done was;
1. Order the color off the OEM Color Code
2. Sent a color sample along for matching
3. Had the shop do a color test and paint something for me to compare.
Some other valuable advice - For those who have body shops paint their cars rather than restoration shops, one thing to consider is the type of paint used. Most body shops use “water based paint” unless they know or are asked to use something different. The shop I used uses “water based paint” on repairs and entire paint jobs on post 1980 model cars. When painting Classic Type Cars usually pre ‘80’s they use PPG’s Acrylic Urethane paint.
So, the car was painted the wrong color and I was VERY unhappy to say the least. When comparing the color spot on the lid to the original color it was pretty darn close, but not exact. Though I kept my cool Julio the owner of the shop knew I was upset. I went home upset thinking what was I to do now... Mind you the body work and paint job was excellent, but it just wasn't the color I wanted. I wanted a classic color, not a sporty color....
The next day I came back to look at the color again. Julio saw how unhappy I was and said he himself couldn’t sleep last night because he kept thinking what he could do to make me happy. He said he knew how much Love I had put into the car coming down to the shop nearly every day for the past 4 months and over seeing everything about it. He said if I wanted the car repainted he would work with me to get the job done to my satisfaction. He told me to take some time and think about it and what I wanted to do.
I then asked Julio whether the vendor or PPG would provide any compensation for the color mixture error. He said "No" because I had given the go ahead on the color rather than send the paint back for a perfect match. Julio mentioned the we should have sent a sample color for PPG to match and then ran a paint sample. I told Julio though that would have been the best thing to do, I really shouldn’t have had to do that. I said, “If I requested the original factory color, that’s what I should have gotten.” Anyways, Julio said he could probably get the vendor to give us the correct color (paint) for free, but the clear alone was about $300 and then there’s the materials and labor. As far as repainting Julio said they would simply wet sand the car, repaint & clear coat it again. Knowing how much he pays his guys I probably could have gotten him to redo the car for $500 if that’s what I wanted. BUT, for how I wanted the car to look I knew a simple wet sand and repaint wouldn't have been satisfactory to me. Keep in mind as the car still had its original primer & color (though mostly sanded down), 2 coats of primer (feather/regular), 3 coats of paint and 3 coats of clear. I felt if they just wet sanded the new paint and repainted over it, that would have added an additional 3 coats of paint and another 3 coats of clear for a total of 16 coats of paint layered on the body! With that much paint any bump on to the body would cause the paint to chip and chip in chunks. Also due to the paint not having cured 100% (takes at least 3-5 months), on a hot day the first 3 coats of paint would emit gases and cause those tiny little pin like bubbles in the paint. Also, due to the over-all paint being so thick, in time the paint would produce spider cracks all over the car. I told Julio that if I were to have him repaint the car, the only way I would be satisfied would be to have the body taken all the way back down to the feather primer, re-blocked the body, re-prime it and re-sand with 320 before repainting. Since I knew it would have been a lot of work and much more than $500, I really had to rethink whether I wanted to spend the money or not.
Well, after stewing over it for 2 weeks I told Julio to just keep the car the color it was painted and finish it up. The day following Julio called me to say he told his guys to put a hold on finishing up the car and had written letters to his vendor, PPG, and to all concerned. He said again he couldn’t sleep the night before and just needed to do something to try to make things right. He thought he could build a case and get someone to cough up some kind of compensation so I could get the car re-painted correctly.
Another two weeks passed and since I hadn’t heard anything I called Julio to tell him if he hadn’t heard anything to just finish up the car as it was. I told Julio I was going on vacation and would like to pick up the car in 10 days. He said the car would be ready.
Now to the present – got back from vacation today (Tues) and went down to the shop at 2pm expecting to pick-up the car. Well, it wasn’t quite ready - Edwin my body guy was polishing the paint. He said he spent the last two days wet sanding and buffing out the car. As I looked over the car I mentioned to Edwin that the paint had a bit too much orange peel in it for me. Edwin said he had wet sanded it with 1500 paper and buffed it out, but it still had some orange peel because we had waited too long before buffing it out. He said normally they would buff a car out after 2 or 3 weeks after the car was painted. After that amount of time the paint surface of the clear would be dry enough to buff out to get a smooth surface. However, in most cases the clear is still a bit wet underneath and the orange peel would come back. Edwin said In my case since the car had sat for nearly 2 months after being painted, the clear had already hardened hard as a rock and a simple buffing wouldn't give that glass like appearance. He said what he would do is wet sand it with 1000 then 3000 grit and re-buff and it should look great after that.
I went back to see the car today (Wed), but it wasn’t in its spot. In its place was Edwin polishing the Cromodora wheel caps. He said he stayed until 8pm last night working on the car and even under coated the car and that it looked excellent. He said it’s out front getting the rims painted and that I should go see it. I went around the front to see the car and found it up on jack stands – and yes, it did look EXCELLENT! The under coating added a very nice touch to a freshly painted car. Edwin said once the wheels are dry and put back on the car he will install all the chrome, trims, lights, bumpers etc and re-buff the car once more to eliminate any swirl marks and wax it. Once the clean up crew gets the interior all cleaned out I could have the car back.
Updated: Sat 7/30 - Here's a pic of the car with its ORIGINAL color #312 - IMO much more Classic
Below are photos of the NEW paint job and under-coating.
Note: The color of the car in the photos below don't depict its actual color as my camera doesn't seem to do so -
UPDATE: Tues 7/27 - After viewing this posting go to Posting "FINALLY SHE'S HOME" to see the final result.
Today (Thurs 7/21) Chin Spoiler Installed
Nice Painted Wheels – Looks Brand New!
Clean Smooth Body Work and Paint
New Style Front Bumper Installed – see old front bumper next photo
’74 Over-rider Bumpers for CALIFORNIA
