Mark's header looks interesting but I'm guessing it would probably be wasted without head and cam work
Au Contraire! My header/system makes a huge improvement on a stock motor. My own car has a completely stock 1800 with one of the early design systems (prior to the current stepper header) and the car just screams. I have several systems on completely stock cars and the owners are thrilled with the upgrade. While it really enhances performance upgrades like bigger carbs, cams etc. it's a viable alternative to modifying your motor. You can gain substantial performance without sacrificing the driveability of a stock motor.
I've had several customers tell me it was the biggest single performance mod they have ever made to their car
4-2-1 exhaust options
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So Cal Mark
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manoa matt
- Posts: 3442
- Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:28 pm
- Your car is a: 1978 Fiat 124 Spider 1800
- Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
If you are running a stock 4-1 manifold then switching to a 4-2-1 will definatly help. But if you are asking what is the difference between an aftermarket 4-2-1 header system versus a stock cast iron 4-2 maifold with 2-1 downpipes then how much performance is debateable without dyno testing. The stock cast iron manifold might be quieter.
The question is what are your capabilities? I'm pretty good at fabrication and welding. I got a good deal on an aftermarket performance 4-2-1 header system from Vics. The header did not fit exactly right and I had to do a lot of reworking of the flange and the 2-1 downpipes. So now I basically have a custom system. If a pipe gets damaged I can't just buy something from the vendors I'll have to re-fabricate it.
If you go the performance header route and have a mechanic/muffler man do it, expect to shell out some money and hope they get everything to fit right.
On the other hand If you buy a used 4-2 cast iron manifold and a 2-1 downpipe from the vendors, then everything should fit the first time and you can do it yourself with little trouble. Plus if the downpipe ever gets dented or rusts thru you can always buy another and bolt it right up.
As for stainless systems, they are expensive. The rear muffler is the first part of the system to rust out and it usually starts at the welds where the pipes enter and exit the muffler. I ceramic coated my entire system from downpipes to the muffler with a rattle can of primer and a rattle can of ceramic coating for $12. My entire system from headers to muffler cost me $260 with ceramic coating, but If I had to do over I might have gone with a stock 4-2 manifold and stock 2-1 pipes. I've got a lot of man hours in my system.
The last thing you want to worry about is the sound. Make sure everything fits the way it should and does not leak and is properly supported. I didn't like the sound my new headers made when I first installed them, now I can't imagine it any other way.
The link you provided: Do they want $250 for a stainless rear muffler or the entire system? Can't imagine its the entire system.
Matt
The question is what are your capabilities? I'm pretty good at fabrication and welding. I got a good deal on an aftermarket performance 4-2-1 header system from Vics. The header did not fit exactly right and I had to do a lot of reworking of the flange and the 2-1 downpipes. So now I basically have a custom system. If a pipe gets damaged I can't just buy something from the vendors I'll have to re-fabricate it.
If you go the performance header route and have a mechanic/muffler man do it, expect to shell out some money and hope they get everything to fit right.
On the other hand If you buy a used 4-2 cast iron manifold and a 2-1 downpipe from the vendors, then everything should fit the first time and you can do it yourself with little trouble. Plus if the downpipe ever gets dented or rusts thru you can always buy another and bolt it right up.
As for stainless systems, they are expensive. The rear muffler is the first part of the system to rust out and it usually starts at the welds where the pipes enter and exit the muffler. I ceramic coated my entire system from downpipes to the muffler with a rattle can of primer and a rattle can of ceramic coating for $12. My entire system from headers to muffler cost me $260 with ceramic coating, but If I had to do over I might have gone with a stock 4-2 manifold and stock 2-1 pipes. I've got a lot of man hours in my system.
The last thing you want to worry about is the sound. Make sure everything fits the way it should and does not leak and is properly supported. I didn't like the sound my new headers made when I first installed them, now I can't imagine it any other way.
The link you provided: Do they want $250 for a stainless rear muffler or the entire system? Can't imagine its the entire system.
Matt
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CarNut
That's what I was wondering too. But then I think complete systems for the Triumph are only $500 range. I'll email them some time for more info. I'm not ready to spend anything yet.manoa matt wrote:...The link you provided: Do they want $250 for a stainless rear muffler or the entire system? Can't imagine its the entire system....
As for sound, I am somewhat concerned. I don't want to be like one of those annoying ricers with the fart can tailpipe. One of my daily drivers is a supercharged Saturn Ion Redline. It runs 2.25/2.5" stock piping and is about as loud as I'd like to be.
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CarNut
That performance is with the Magnaflow & exhaust system right? How would it compare relative to other stock cars I might have heard? I'd rather not go louder than my Ion Redline. How bad a performance hit would it be to use the stock rear muffler? I think mine's fairly new. The center section is the weak part.So Cal Mark wrote:...I have several systems on completely stock cars and the owners are thrilled with the upgrade...
I probably won't do anything till spring. I just bought the car and I need to assess the condition of the engine thoroughly before deciding if its worth spending serious dough or just keep it cheap.
BTW, shouldn't it be "al contrario" on a Fiat forum!
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manoa matt
- Posts: 3442
- Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:28 pm
- Your car is a: 1978 Fiat 124 Spider 1800
- Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
I got a Sprint free flow air cleaner, Vick perf headers, a straight pipe in place of cat, free flow ANSA center muffler and a free flow rear muffler non resonated. I think that this system is as free flow as you can get without running staight pipes.
The sound from my new set up is less audible that what my old stock setup made.
However I believe the PO had punched out the cat, or it was just old and was a big metal sound chamber. Any noise the engine made would be amplified when it hit the cat converter.
I did like the sound of the stock setup, especially when the second barrel of the carb would open. It would produce a deeper "whaaaa" sound from the air cleaner that was awsome. Dosen't do it with the current setup, but I got the system the way I like it, I've spent enough money, and could care less about the "tone" as long as it dosen't sound like a rice burner or a Harley.
The sound from my new set up is less audible that what my old stock setup made.
However I believe the PO had punched out the cat, or it was just old and was a big metal sound chamber. Any noise the engine made would be amplified when it hit the cat converter.
I did like the sound of the stock setup, especially when the second barrel of the carb would open. It would produce a deeper "whaaaa" sound from the air cleaner that was awsome. Dosen't do it with the current setup, but I got the system the way I like it, I've spent enough money, and could care less about the "tone" as long as it dosen't sound like a rice burner or a Harley.
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So Cal Mark
using the stock rear muffler would negate most performance gains from any system. The stock systems were 1 3/4" and just don't flow enough at high rpm.
Not to dispute what Matt has found with his car, but I recently installed a Vicks' header and complete system on a stock 78 Spider. I didn't experience any performance gain with it, and the fit was terrible. We spent the better part of a day making that thing fit the car
Not to dispute what Matt has found with his car, but I recently installed a Vicks' header and complete system on a stock 78 Spider. I didn't experience any performance gain with it, and the fit was terrible. We spent the better part of a day making that thing fit the car
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manoa matt
- Posts: 3442
- Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:28 pm
- Your car is a: 1978 Fiat 124 Spider 1800
- Location: Honolulu, Hawaii