Budget 2.0 (2L) build

[maytag]

Give it hell, Maytag! As I read that, I pictured an F250 wide open on I-84 with tumbleweeds stuck in its grill and truck stop beef jerky stuck in your teeth!

Well, in honesty, it was a Mercedes ML430, with the motor on a pallet, strapped down in the cargo area. Some of the bumps / hills / curves on the 95, from Needles to Vidala were brutal in the dark! Not to mention my teeth won't take the beef jerky any longer, so I've moved to sunflower seeds with a spit-cup in hand.

Socal Mark: I was surprised that running 8mph-over in a 65 made me the slowest guy around, but running 8mph-over in a 75 had me passing EVERYBODY! what's that all about?


I'll make a concerted effort to keep a photo journal and write-up of what I do. I'm broke too.... (a commissioned sales-guy in a "down economy" has to keep his eyes on the horizon ) so budget will remain the operative word here.

I'm thinking that one of the first thigs I may do is cc the heads and the swept area of the bore, as I still have not heard an explanation that seems definitive to the argument that a "stock 2L with an 1800 head equates to a 9.5 compression ratio", while others keep saying no it doesnt. I guess I'm confused by that.

I'd love it if somebody could save me the trouble and time, and tell me why there seems to be this difference in opinion, and what the real answer is, definitively. otherwise I will be goin through the (for a math-challenged idiot like me) fairly painfull measuring and calculations to definitively answer it for myself.

[FiatMac]

Maytag,
Jon Logan (Midwest124.com) had an excellent write up on this in the Summer 04 edition of Ricambi, the bi-monthly publication of FLU. In the article he calculated and compared the Static compresson ratio of all combinations of stock 2L pistons, stock 1.8 pistons, Kobenschmidt pistons (1.6mm domes), Mondial pistons with 4.5mm dome, Mondial pistons with 8mm domes, 2L and 1.8L heads, and 2L and 1.8L blocks. You may be able to get reprints from him or FLU, or I could make a copy of the article to send to you.

Here is a list of his calculated compression ratio results:

2 Liter Block and Head and Stock 2L Pistons---- 8.1
2 Liter Block and Head and Stock 1.8L Pistons---- 8.17
2 Liter Block and Head and 1.6mm Dome Pistons---- 8.85
2 Liter Block and Head and 4.5mm Dome Pistons---- 9.93
2 Liter Block and Head and 8mm Dome Pistons---- 10.75
2 Liter Block, 1.8L Head and Stock 2L Pistons---- 8.53
2 Liter Block, 1.8L Head and 1.8L Pistons---- 8.61
2 Liter Block, 1.8L Head, 1.6mm Dome Pistons---- 9.37
2 Liter Block, 1.8L Head, 4.5mm Dome Pistons---- 10.62
2 Liter Block, 1.8L Head, 8mm Dome Pistons---- 11.57
1.8 Liter Block and Head, Stock 1.8L Pistons---- 8
1.8 Liter Block and Head, Stock 2L Pistons---- 7.93
1.8 Liter Block and Head, 1.6mm Dome Pistons---- 8.75
1.8 Liter Block and Head, 4.5mm Dome Pistons---- 9.96
1.8 Liter Block and Head, 8mm Dome Pistons---- 10.91
1.8 Liter Block, 2L Head, Stock 1.8L Pistons---- 7.58
1.8 Liter Block, 2L Head, Stock 2L Pistons---- 7.51
1.8 Liter Block, 2L Head, 1.6mm Dome Pistons---- 8.24
1.8 Liter Block, 2L Head, 4.5mm Dome Pistons---- 9.29
1.8 Liter Block, 2L Head, 8mm Dome Pistons---- 10.1

Of course, if you have modified combustion chambers, shaved heads, decked engine block, different thickness head gasket, etc. then the numbers will be somewhat different. His article includes the dimensions for his components.

Stan

[maytag]

Maytag,
Jon Logan (Midwest124.com) had an excellent write up on this in the Summer 04 edition of Ricambi, the bi-monthly publication of FLU. In the article he calculated and compared the Static compresson ratio of all combinations of stock 2L pistons, stock 1.8 pistons, Kobenschmidt pistons (1.6mm domes), Mondial pistons with 4.5mm dome, Mondial pistons with 8mm domes, 2L and 1.8L heads, and 2L and 1.8L blocks. You may be able to get reprints from him or FLU, or I could make a copy of the article to send to you.

Here is a list of his calculated compression ratio results:

WOW!
this is EXACTLY what I was looking for!

So this seems rather empirical, but I would love it of you would send me the article, since I've no idea what FLU is... ??
Or I could contact Midwest124, if that's smarter?

but this BEGS the question: am I the only one who has been reading elsewhere that a simple-swap of a 1.8 head onto a 2L motor nets a 9.5 CR? If so, then maybe I misread it somewhere?

[carl55]

Maytag
The article I read to get 9.5 with the 2L block, 1.8 head, was using the 8.9 flat top pistons. This is what I would like to do.

Carl

[fiatfactory]

.

[TulsaSpider]

Seems I am on track. 2L block and carb head, 4.5 MM pistons from Csaba. I got the block and crank back from the machine shop today. I still need to have everything balanced. Once the bottom end is done I'll see what I can do with freshening up the head. I'll go with a mild performance cam, new valves (std size) I already have the 34/36 carb and electronic ignition. I already have the aluminum crank pulley (saves four pounds) and flywheel is being lightened. I really appreciate this forum!

[carl55]

Maytag
I was referring to the ones sold by IAP. That is The way they refer to the piston. They do not give any other specs.
The item no. is 27261, made by Mahle.

Carl

[maytag]

Motor is on the stand. I didn't have time to do anthing with it this evening (I'm working 14 hr days), but I snapped a picture of the two studs at the lower-right of the block. The 1800 block has a boss for a mount, but the 2L has the two studs. Anyone know what that is all about? (see the photos below)






Additionally: there are markings on the cam-boxes. it appears to say "131-USA" on both, as well as a red sticker with an 'S' on the back-end of the right-side. Is this an incorrect motor for the '79 2000 that it supposedly came out of?

[narfire]

I think the two studs were for an air conditioner thingy and the cast mount was for the air pump in the 1800. I have the same on my 2L blocks and the cast mount on a 1800 I have on a stand.
Have fun with the re-build... more fun than brakes

[thechadzone]

Looks like a decent starting point for a rebuild; not totally oily & crusted with filth... Your question about the motor's origin reminded me of a motor ID chart I saw a while back on the Fiat Forum:

http://www.fiatforum.com/spider/47667-f ... block.html

According to this, it is as you were told. Thanks for the pics, and best wishes for your rebuild.

[maytag]

I think the two studs were for an air conditioner thingy and the cast mount was for the air pump in the 1800. I have the same on my 2L blocks and the cast mount on a 1800 I have on a stand.
Have fun with the re-build... more fun than brakes

So can I remove those studs? are they wet behind?

[manoa matt]

The studs served one of three purposes, either they were for an air pump bracket, air conditioner compressor, or if you have the aluminum adapter you can mount your alternator on there. The rear stud goes into the crankcase, however it should be above the oil level, if you remove them you will need to block of that rear hole with a shorter bolt with a gasket under the head.

[pastaroni34]

You don't have to use a gasket necessarily. I recommend Loctite 271 to take care of sealing. You should seal both bolts, one of my blocks is drilled and tapped all the way through. Apparently Fiat wasn't consistent in this regard.

FYI, the block you have with the cast knuckle/bracket does not locate the alternator in the same location as the bolt-on aluminum knuckle/bracket.

[maytag]

You don't have to use a gasket necessarily. I recommend Loctite 271 to take care of sealing. You should seal both bolts, one of my blocks is drilled and tapped all the way through. Apparently Fiat wasn't consistent in this regard.

FYI, the block you have with the cast knuckle/bracket does not locate the alternator in the same location as the bolt-on aluminum knuckle/bracket.

Well, I'm a ways off, but I assume there are parts available to adapt the (very-few) accessories I need on this motor. thanks for all your help!

[maytag]

My "Budget 2L" budget just took another hit.

The first, some of you may recall, was when the first 2L I purchased turned-out to be an 1800 in a 2L body....

So after sourcing another, here's what I found this evening after removing the head from this "low-miles" motor:


That's the rear cylinder, with rust embedded in the wall, like it's been run with a head-gasket leak (??).

I'm trying to not be frustrated. I bougth this thing from a 90 yr old man who told me it had dual-carbs, low miles, ran great when removed 15 years ago.... at which time he filled the cylinders with oil, etc etc etc. Of course I drove 600+ miles to discover that to him, a 2-barrell carb is "dual-carbs". I chalked this up to his age, and paid him what I figured it was worth, and drove back home (600+ miles).

I'm frustrated. here's what I've got:

first glance looks okay. There is still very clear cross-hatching visible on the cylinder walls.


then I rotate the crank and see the rear cylinder wall:

I immediately look at the head for signs of fouling, which dissapoints, as there really is no indication on the head.


I peeled the gasket, looking for signs of blow-by / leakage into / out of the cylinder, but again, no real signs of that either:



I cleaned-up the cylinder wall with some lacquer thinner, so I could see what is not surface, and this is the end result:



So whaddy'all think? is it possible that when he popped the plugs 15 yrs ago to put oil in the cylinders that he let in moisture that's been eating away at the cylinder? OR does this lok like a leaky cylnder?
Either way: I'm in for a bore-job now, as I don't think a simple hone will clean that up. Please tell me there's no magic nickel-plated coating or other crap that makes it more than a simple bore?

And I need to make a head selection. I haven't inspected them closely yet, but they sure look like similar size chambers. ??