How far should I go? 2L eng mods

racydave · Post by **racydave** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 12:22 am

tom, you could do the higher compression trick, use mild cams, improve your valve springs, and still achieve streetability. But in the end, its still not a race car. I would consider beefin the brakes. I like the roll bars too.

Joe Clemente · Post by **Joe Clemente** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 4:48 am

Is this true? I mean, my whole point of adding cams is to get some
easy, significant, noticable, added performance...
T

Hey, don't take my word for it Tom. Open up that wallet of yours and find out for yourself if you prefer. It is your money to spend. Or get another opinion or two or ten. That's what I would do. And I would seek that opinion from somebody in the business like Croft or Mark perhaps or Vickauto or Shadetree or from anybody else with experience with these cars and modifying them, not just from whoever thinks it might be cool for you to supe up your car. For whatever it's worth, the opinion I've offered you is from experience but don't let me stop you from second guessing me. I tell my realtor he's full of s**t all the time but I could never be as good as he is at the job he does...

I'm not trying to throw a wrench in your plans. I have nothing to sell you, no business cards attached. I am gaining nothing in offering you this opinion but certainly much less by telling you what you think you want to hear about simply bolting on a set of cams. Sorry to disappoint you. Personally I'd prefer to see you make an informed, correct decision with your choice of mods rather than a bad one, especially if you intend to pay somebody else to do the work for you.

A question for Mark, just out of genuine curiosity, you raise the notion of "mild cam". What are we talking about here when you say "mild"? I suspect you mean a regrind?

Tom, I would agree that some regrinds will work ok even with lower compression but as I said before they still represent a compromise. Don't delude yourself with the idea that they will transform your car into a rocket all by themselves. They won't. They won't offer you everything from low end grunt to high end scream all in one nice cheap package. Mark was absolutely right about tradeoffs, and regrinds are no different from billets in that respect.

Consider this: You opt for a regrind with a bit more lift but less overlap. You'll gain some bottom end torque but you lose scavenging at higher revs, a tradeoff. Secondly, lift is itself limited on regrinds by the amount of material you can have ground off the base circle, their ramps are harsher and the rate of wear higher. A cam grinder may get around this by welding more material on before grinding it down. In my experience this just makes for a pricier cam. Additionally, most regrinds, in particular those with a reduced base circle, can present challenges when setting the correct valve lash if you don't have enough shim to make up the gap for the missing material. Though I've seen doubled shims to deal with this, it is an breathtakingly bad idea that can have catastrophic results.

So the whole point is, any cam choice is going to present you with tradeoffs, some potentially more costly than others. Assuming you have established a budget and determined the level of performance you want as Mark recommends, you'll have to weigh those tradeoffs.

So Cal Mark · Post by **So Cal Mark** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 3:34 pm

Joe,
I'm not advocating anyones' cam-new or reground. While I have a source for reground cams, I'm not pushing them. I'm merely advising against radical cams for street use. Over the years I've seen more people unhappy with big cams in street cars than I have seen unhappy about not enough cam.
I tried to shift this discussion to formulating a plan to get the desired results. What hasn't been talked about is the condition of any motor that is going to get perf upgrades. Any perf upgrade that is being considered to compensate for a less-than-perfect motor is not going to be successful. Worn rings, cyls, valve guides, leaks etc should be a reason for a rebuild before any performance work is done.
Everyone talks hp figures, but if your motor is at peak efficiency you won't even be at the factory stated figure to begin with

TVST*R · Post by **TVST*R** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 4:52 pm

Is the valve timing of 40-80 pretty standard for performance cams
for this car?
Who are the vendors for these cams (besides IAP)?
Thanks for all the comments.
T

So Cal Mark · Post by **So Cal Mark** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 6:04 pm

my street cam is 34-72. Guy Croft sells Kent Cams, not sure what IAP is using. There aren't that many sources anymore that I know of since it's a pretty small market now

TVST*R · Post by **TVST*R** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 9:23 pm

So Cal Mark wrote:my street cam is 34-72. Guy Croft sells Kent Cams, not sure what IAP is using. There aren't that many sources anymore that I know of since it's a pretty small market now

And what is the duration at .050" clearance?
Thanks!

Gerard Del Monte · Post by **Gerard Del Monte** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 9:26 pm

Mark has a good point. In Guy Croft's post, the very first thing he said was to go over your engine first and get it in good running order before contemplating any of his suggestions.

Joe Clemente · Post by **Joe Clemente** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 10:09 pm

Mark,

A clarification; I wasn't suggesting that you were trying to push any particular product. I was merely trying to underline the value of making an informed decision regardless where one gets the information from. I've always personally steered away from regrinds but that should not stop Tom or anyone else for that matter from investigating their effectiveness. It's just worth while to know what they're all about as it would be to know what billets will give you too.
But you are quite right about the need to assess the overall condition of the motor. My assumption was that the motor was already a good candidate. If it's a worn high mileage lump to begin with, no point in doing any mods first.

FYI, other cam info:

Bayless offers Alquati but be prepared to pay $$$, IAP were selling Pitattore but I am not sure if they have continued with them or not. Colombo & Barriani also make good cams for the 124 but you need to go through either Croft or the C&B factory for them. PBS still offers a number of their own grinds as well. Their data is online here:

http://www.pbseng.com/camdata-124.html

lanciahf · Post by **lanciahf** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 10:43 pm

Hi Dave,

My Car has the following
38 ADL
FAZA 35/75 cam on the intake
8.91 Pistons or More, (who knows anymore with a 2L)
Exhaust cam has been timed for 110 overlap vs 114

Car is nice and docile the only difference is the car pulls really great when the secondary opens up and pulls really well after 5000 rpms where the stock motor was flat. My main problem now is remembering to watch the tach as I'm not used to the motor spinning so fast. The noise the car makes when the secondary opens up is irresistible and so much fun to drive Hint (bad gas mileage - Heavy Foot)
Ralph

TVST*R · Post by **TVST*R** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 10:56 pm

lanciahf wrote:Hi Dave,

My Car has the following
38 ADL
FAZA 35/75 cam on the intake
8.91 Pistons or More, (who knows anymore with a 2L)
Exhaust cam has been timed for 110 overlap vs 114

Car is nice and docile the only difference is the car pulls really great when the secondary opens up and pulls really well after 5000 rpms where the stock motor was flat. My main problem now is remembering to watch the tach as I'm not used to the motor spinning so fast. The noise the car makes when the secondary opens up is irresistible and so much fun to drive Hint (bad gas mileage - Heavy Foot)
Ralph

How is the drivability in town, ie off the line?
I am looking for that power at 5000 rpm and at
the same time keep it where the wife can drive it.

Joe
Thanks for the vendor help. I'll definitely check out those guys.

Thanks!
T

So Cal Mark · Post by **So Cal Mark** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 11:43 pm

The 2L make such great torque at low rpm compared to the 1.8 that they require different discussions.
Joe, thanks for the vendor info on cams. I understand your feelings about regrinds, especially high lift cams. They are an alternative though, and I've been happy with all of the units I've installed. But every situation is different, so there are times I'll suggest using new, sometimes I'll suggest regrinds. Just as a general rule though, most times I'll try to convince an owner to stay with less cam for the street.
As always, thanks for your input, it's always knowledgeable.

mdrburchette · Post by **mdrburchette** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:14 am

So, what makes the bigger cams cause a lumpy idle? I was fully expecting to run the idle on my 1608 at 1200 for a smoother idle, and had to do so when the Holley was installed, but now that I've gone with the dual idf's it idles smooth at 700. One thing to note is when I had the new engine dynoed, the torque and power curves were the same as the stock engine, so I pulled one of the cams out and measured the lobe lift and it measured 10.4 instead of the advertised 10.6 for the autocross cam. That's only .05 more than the performance street cam.

lanciahf · Post by **lanciahf** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:19 am

Power off the line is a little better than a stock spider. The big difference is where a stock spider is flat 4500+ rpms.

So Cal Mark · Post by **So Cal Mark** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 11:48 am

Tom
my street cam specs are 34-72, 210 duration @ 050 and 9.8mm lift
The next cam up is 35-73, 214 duration @ 050, 10.42mm lift

racydave · Post by **racydave** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:49 pm

Hi Ralph, I was wondering what you were building? What head are you using? did the water pump help? I have not done anything to the carb yet, its a nice match for my car. It might be a little tiny rich, but I want to do some tweekin with other things first, I think it will be real colse to perfect. Dave