My exact point Denise. Go ahead and build your factories here....but expect us to carry the load while you shovel the profits back home? Why do we buy our jobs by giving these hoodlums all of those tax breaks? Property tax supported services are still provided, so who is footing the bill?
Once the US has exhausted its supply of disposable income - - who is left to purchase your products?
Give me back my job! Keep your dang MG-C or whatever you will call it.
And placing the factory on an Indian reservation has the same identical effect, except for the life of the factory -- instead of for only a certain amount of years which is a typical tax abatement. Except for the fact that there are few, if any, Indian Reservations that have their own sewage, electrical, highway, solid waste disposal, natural gas, or any other resource required by a major factory. So, where will these resources come from, and who is paying?
We are selling our future, more importantly, we are selling (giving away) the futures of our next generations. Wake up America!! Please remind me again, what do I owe the Chinese? Did we invaid their land? Did we "steal" their oil? Did we war against them and defeat them? Did we enslave their ancestors? NOPE. NOPE. NOPE. AND NOPE. So why must we pay them to build cars here?
Chinese MGs coming to the US
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Joe Clemente
- Posts: 151
- Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 1:35 am
- Location: Vancouver, B.C. CANADA
Denise, Mike,
With all due respect, I appreciate your point about having "buy" or more appropriately, bid on the jobs. But then, is it your collective position that these companies should not do what they have done or proposed to do and set up shop somewhere else instead? Is it your contention that it would be better not to have any employment opportunities for Americans at all rather than to suffer the indignity of supporting some other country's branch plant economics? Ask Canadians how they feel about that. (not, as I suspect, that they would matter to you) Just as easy for Canadians to bitch about having their manufacturing jobs go south but the fact is that American companies have supported our economy for generations. Certainly the profits go out but it's important to weigh that against the prospect of no jobs at all.
Ironically, North American companies have been doing this very thing in Asian countries for years. Build it cheaper over there to avoid the high labor costs over here. For an American citizen looking for employment it's an obvious frustration but for a company what makes more sense? The fact that there is now a Chinese car manufacturer doing this in the U.S. is a sign of the times. Isn't this part of that process called "globalization" And, correct me if I'm wrong, isn't the U.S. government one its strongest proponents?
Lastly, and again no disrespect intended but the reality of a modern capitalist system (and by all means correct me if I'm mistaken) is that nobody owes you a job and a living. This is an underpinning of any society that supports economic freedom; you're free to make as much money as you can and you're also free to stay poor.
It's part of that thing so many refer to as the American Dream...
With all due respect, I appreciate your point about having "buy" or more appropriately, bid on the jobs. But then, is it your collective position that these companies should not do what they have done or proposed to do and set up shop somewhere else instead? Is it your contention that it would be better not to have any employment opportunities for Americans at all rather than to suffer the indignity of supporting some other country's branch plant economics? Ask Canadians how they feel about that. (not, as I suspect, that they would matter to you) Just as easy for Canadians to bitch about having their manufacturing jobs go south but the fact is that American companies have supported our economy for generations. Certainly the profits go out but it's important to weigh that against the prospect of no jobs at all.
Ironically, North American companies have been doing this very thing in Asian countries for years. Build it cheaper over there to avoid the high labor costs over here. For an American citizen looking for employment it's an obvious frustration but for a company what makes more sense? The fact that there is now a Chinese car manufacturer doing this in the U.S. is a sign of the times. Isn't this part of that process called "globalization" And, correct me if I'm wrong, isn't the U.S. government one its strongest proponents?
Lastly, and again no disrespect intended but the reality of a modern capitalist system (and by all means correct me if I'm mistaken) is that nobody owes you a job and a living. This is an underpinning of any society that supports economic freedom; you're free to make as much money as you can and you're also free to stay poor.
It's part of that thing so many refer to as the American Dream...
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mdrburchette
- Posts: 5754
- Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 5:49 am
- Your car is a: 1972 Fiat 124 Sport
- Location: Winston-Salem, NC
Joe, I understand why we have to bid on jobs and why corporations are going overseas for manufacturing and I have no political soapbox from which to stand. But, I'm concerned about the future of America as a whole. We used to be pretty self sufficient but now, due to cheap labor overseas, we are forced to import even basic necessities. This may be unfounded, but it scares me to think of how much money is lost to the economy due to jobs drying up and the money that is going out to other countries.
Sorry everyone! A Fiat forum is not the place to vent these types of concerns...I'll keep quiet now.
Sorry everyone! A Fiat forum is not the place to vent these types of concerns...I'll keep quiet now.
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Joe Clemente
- Posts: 151
- Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 1:35 am
- Location: Vancouver, B.C. CANADA
Denise,
I don't think you need to apologize for expressing an opinion. Besides, that's why they call this Off topic and Social (maybe they should change it to Off Topic and Socio-politico-economic
)
Here's the problem as I see it. The standards of our society are a double edged sword. We have a certain standard of living we insist upon but that living standard costs more to maintain. No doubt we are all share a similar concern about those jobs leaving our countries but the simple fact is that those same jobs, whether they are in manufacturing, information technology or other services are going because they can get done for much much less in developing countries. That's the new reality. And underlying this reality is other fact that these countries have far lower standards of living to maintain than ours. So, like any good industrialist/entrpreneur, the typical North American or European company exec will exploit this because unfortunately, social justice and giving you back your job just isn't a part of his success formula.
I don't think you need to apologize for expressing an opinion. Besides, that's why they call this Off topic and Social (maybe they should change it to Off Topic and Socio-politico-economic
) Here's the problem as I see it. The standards of our society are a double edged sword. We have a certain standard of living we insist upon but that living standard costs more to maintain. No doubt we are all share a similar concern about those jobs leaving our countries but the simple fact is that those same jobs, whether they are in manufacturing, information technology or other services are going because they can get done for much much less in developing countries. That's the new reality. And underlying this reality is other fact that these countries have far lower standards of living to maintain than ours. So, like any good industrialist/entrpreneur, the typical North American or European company exec will exploit this because unfortunately, social justice and giving you back your job just isn't a part of his success formula.
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mbouse
Joe,
No disrespect taken.
I just do not get excited like others when I hear that a foreign country's industry steals my tax dollars, however they go about doing so. I also take an immediate defensive position when I hear other Americans (and that term includes Canadians and Mexicans) get excited about anything from the "mainland"....China.
I've seen dear friends loose jobs, houses, and lifestyles to the Chinese. I myself have lost a job to the Chinese, literally watched my boss give it away.
Don't ask me to give them a hand up. Stop asking me to do so. I have given enough. They've already gotten too much from this country, and from me personally. I can count the exact cost. I lost 8 months wages, and ended up taking a job for 2/3rds of my previous wage....plus an insurance package that is less than 1/2 what I used to enjoy, and all my vacation time started over...
Is what happened to me typical? More than you realize. Unfortuantely, those costs are never popular, so they are never published. Only the fact that 500 "new" jobs coming in. Ask Oklahoma what their NET job increase/decrease has been over the past 5 years. Bet it is not a pretty picture. And those "new" jobs will never pay anything near what the jobs they replaced did.
Like Denise, I am signing off on this topic. Let's talk about cars, not politics.
No disrespect taken.
I just do not get excited like others when I hear that a foreign country's industry steals my tax dollars, however they go about doing so. I also take an immediate defensive position when I hear other Americans (and that term includes Canadians and Mexicans) get excited about anything from the "mainland"....China.
I've seen dear friends loose jobs, houses, and lifestyles to the Chinese. I myself have lost a job to the Chinese, literally watched my boss give it away.
Don't ask me to give them a hand up. Stop asking me to do so. I have given enough. They've already gotten too much from this country, and from me personally. I can count the exact cost. I lost 8 months wages, and ended up taking a job for 2/3rds of my previous wage....plus an insurance package that is less than 1/2 what I used to enjoy, and all my vacation time started over...
Is what happened to me typical? More than you realize. Unfortuantely, those costs are never popular, so they are never published. Only the fact that 500 "new" jobs coming in. Ask Oklahoma what their NET job increase/decrease has been over the past 5 years. Bet it is not a pretty picture. And those "new" jobs will never pay anything near what the jobs they replaced did.
Like Denise, I am signing off on this topic. Let's talk about cars, not politics.
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Joe Clemente
- Posts: 151
- Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 1:35 am
- Location: Vancouver, B.C. CANADA
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So Cal Mark
these topic has an underlying "buy American" feel to it, which is impossible to do anymore. "American made" cars are built with parts sourced from all over the world, and sub-assemblies built in various places.
And tax breaks aren't given just to foreign companies, look at the list of American Corps that paid no taxes in recent years while they raked in record profits and blew out retirement and healthcare programs.
While you want to boycott foreign corps doing business here, wouldn't it make more sense to boycott American corps that have ravaged our own citizens?
And tax breaks aren't given just to foreign companies, look at the list of American Corps that paid no taxes in recent years while they raked in record profits and blew out retirement and healthcare programs.
While you want to boycott foreign corps doing business here, wouldn't it make more sense to boycott American corps that have ravaged our own citizens?
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mdrburchette
- Posts: 5754
- Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 5:49 am
- Your car is a: 1972 Fiat 124 Sport
- Location: Winston-Salem, NC
I was going to keep quiet, but you hit a good point, Mark. Case in point is the company I mentioned previously...Dell. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate them considering our area to build their factory. Every little bit helps. But they wanted to come to NC, then had 6 counties bidding on the location. We won and now my taxes are higher...damn, now I'll have to take a Fiat drive to get rid of my headache.
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jacksplace
Some fifty years ago people would ask me why I drove those funny little foreign cars. My reply was simply that, in my opinion, those funny little foreign cars had better brakes and suspensions and were sized more logically for the purpose of transportation and sport. I also replied (fifty years ago) that it was OK as long as everyone else didn't discover the value of the foreign cars. When that happened our economy would be in trouble.
In addition, my travels taught me that part of the reason the European cars were better and cheaper was that we (the U.S.A.) were not living in what I considered the "real world". When I lived in Germany in the '50s the average employed person did not own a car and did not travel 50 miles to work every day. The average mechanic or clerk had a bicycle or a small motorcycle. At that time Germany had the strongest economy in Europe.
When I lived in Japan during the 60's, the average Japanese did not own a car. If you were a mechanic you were not in an economic position to own a car. At that time Japan had the strongest economy in Asia.
At that same time, people on welfare in the U.S. may have owned two very large cars. It was my opinion that someday we (the U.S.A.) would be dragged kicking and screaming into the "real world". I believe we are getting closer to that day with the passing of each year.
Please don't read this and question my patriotism. I dedicated twenty years to the U.S. Navy and went where I was ordered. I'm just reporting facts as I see them and I worry about the future we are leaving for my grandchildren.
In addition, my travels taught me that part of the reason the European cars were better and cheaper was that we (the U.S.A.) were not living in what I considered the "real world". When I lived in Germany in the '50s the average employed person did not own a car and did not travel 50 miles to work every day. The average mechanic or clerk had a bicycle or a small motorcycle. At that time Germany had the strongest economy in Europe.
When I lived in Japan during the 60's, the average Japanese did not own a car. If you were a mechanic you were not in an economic position to own a car. At that time Japan had the strongest economy in Asia.
At that same time, people on welfare in the U.S. may have owned two very large cars. It was my opinion that someday we (the U.S.A.) would be dragged kicking and screaming into the "real world". I believe we are getting closer to that day with the passing of each year.
Please don't read this and question my patriotism. I dedicated twenty years to the U.S. Navy and went where I was ordered. I'm just reporting facts as I see them and I worry about the future we are leaving for my grandchildren.
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Joe Clemente
- Posts: 151
- Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 1:35 am
- Location: Vancouver, B.C. CANADA
Here's an interesting anecdote about China's manufacturing practices:
I few years ago my buddy and I finished building this car for competition:
While developing the motor, we opted to use a very expensive header:
It's made by an American company in California, the build quality is second to none, the power increase was dynoed at a clean 25 hp and the price tag was $2200 US. That's just for the header, not the rest of the exhaust... The owner of the company was telling us later on that in an attempt to cut down his own manufacturing costs, he thought he would take advantage of cheap overseas labour. He spent about $12,000 of his own money going back and forth between the U.S. and Asia, researching until he finally connected with a company in China specializing in metal fabrication and specialized welding. Spent lots of time going over the details and finally managed to get his header reproduced to his exact specifications for a fraction of his own original cost. Great! At least he thought until he found out that his exact same header was now being built by another Chinese company (just down the street) and offered for sale for a whopping $400 US. Same dimensions, same build quality, same features, same applications same everything...Talk about screwed.
Worse, he had little recourse as China does not have the same legal infrastructure as we do and does not recognize anyone else's copyright laws. This is just one of numerous similar cases. Ironically, it's the kind of dishonesty that is starting to cost China opportunities as more and more businesses are setting up their operations in that other "emerging" market, India. Sounds like little consolation to the North American labour maket but despite benefitting from work that could and should be done in North America, at least India has copyright practices consistent with our own.
I few years ago my buddy and I finished building this car for competition:
While developing the motor, we opted to use a very expensive header:
It's made by an American company in California, the build quality is second to none, the power increase was dynoed at a clean 25 hp and the price tag was $2200 US. That's just for the header, not the rest of the exhaust... The owner of the company was telling us later on that in an attempt to cut down his own manufacturing costs, he thought he would take advantage of cheap overseas labour. He spent about $12,000 of his own money going back and forth between the U.S. and Asia, researching until he finally connected with a company in China specializing in metal fabrication and specialized welding. Spent lots of time going over the details and finally managed to get his header reproduced to his exact specifications for a fraction of his own original cost. Great! At least he thought until he found out that his exact same header was now being built by another Chinese company (just down the street) and offered for sale for a whopping $400 US. Same dimensions, same build quality, same features, same applications same everything...Talk about screwed.
Worse, he had little recourse as China does not have the same legal infrastructure as we do and does not recognize anyone else's copyright laws. This is just one of numerous similar cases. Ironically, it's the kind of dishonesty that is starting to cost China opportunities as more and more businesses are setting up their operations in that other "emerging" market, India. Sounds like little consolation to the North American labour maket but despite benefitting from work that could and should be done in North America, at least India has copyright practices consistent with our own.
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So Cal Mark
Jack and Mike both have interesting points, but what we're experiencing now is what I'd always heard was the "American Dream". Build a better mousetrap (or cheaper) and the world will beat a path to your door. While that used to be motivation for the little US entrepreneur, it's now applied at the global level.
I certainly appreciate a foreign mfg that builds a factory here much more than a domestic corp that has an offshore address to avoid taxes and outsources all their products from another country. While neither keeps any profit in the US, only one of them creates any jobs here.
I certainly appreciate a foreign mfg that builds a factory here much more than a domestic corp that has an offshore address to avoid taxes and outsources all their products from another country. While neither keeps any profit in the US, only one of them creates any jobs here.
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racydave
Our state gov did not bat an eye when he pushed the I69 expansion down our throats and sold us out to foriegn companies to lease the project.our workers all were badly mistreated before the formation of labor unions, major companies got beat up by thoes same unions, and couldnt compete esp with the spiraling costs of healthcare, no one voulenteers to give an inch. I am the only one in my house with health insurance, I feel like I am failing my family. as for the chineese, they are now the major consumer of oil. They do not play fair in the world market, I would not spit on one of their cars! We brought this on ourselves, none of our elected polititions run on a platform designed to address our real problems. We try to impose our ideals on the world, while not taking care of our real issues at home. Recently Honda announced a new factory to be built in In, good for thoes folks in the short term, but in the long run, why cant we design similar vehicles? This all boils down to sooner or later we will end up ruining Alaska to meet our consumption needs. I do not know the answers, only some of the problems. Sincerly hope I did not step on any toes, we need some real leadership to re-invent ourselves.
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CarlaRWG
Everyone one has a good point which is why this is such a hard problem. With that said I wouldn't buy a car from China regardless of where it was built. You can't remake a classic! It's not like bringing back some of the styling of Mustang's that image is very American, except for us loonatics most people don't know what a MG, MGB, Fiat, Triumph, Austin Healey, Jensen Healey, ect...is, and they won't buy it.
My father is a factory man and I've seen first hand plant closings, so for my own little war on outsourcing and foreign products, check for the made in America and know what companies are American. I believe that extra $1.00 I may pay for my American made daily products will make a difference if we all do it. Anyone can just complain about problems, few do something about it.
My father is a factory man and I've seen first hand plant closings, so for my own little war on outsourcing and foreign products, check for the made in America and know what companies are American. I believe that extra $1.00 I may pay for my American made daily products will make a difference if we all do it. Anyone can just complain about problems, few do something about it.