my car is ''twitchy''

[So Cal Mark]

pics? we love to see damage

[ga.spyder]

Sorry,no damage pix! You really cant see the dent or the slight twist in the arms,unless they are on a lift.We had it up there today,and it may be enough to throw the geometry off some.New ones were shipped today.They are only 42 apiece from Bayless.I thought that sounded reasonable(less than I expected)

[So Cal Mark]

very reasonable, take some pics when they are laying on the ground

[ga.spyder]

Spent an hour at the alignment shop today.The toe was out some which attributes to my problem. The car has negative camber on both sides.Out 1 degree on drivers,1/2 degree on pass.Enough to affect tire wear and handling? The problem is the con arms need to come in,and they have no room to move! The new bushing washers are against the cross member.I have to either remove the lower con arm,grind the edges of the cross member for clearance or try to cut the shims out with a dremel or something If this makes sense to any one,please let me know!!I dont understand why it has changed after rebuild.Oversize bushings? It was suggested that the already rebuilt uppers that I bought dirt cheap,may be slightly off size from my originals. I spoke with Denise today and she said she had a similar problem after a front rebuild.Ahhhh....the life of a Fiat owner! Any suggestions?
Craig

[pope]

Craig, that is one loooooonnnnnggggg ramble. Who's one first??

I inserted my lower arm on to the studs and have about 3/16" of a gap between the metal washer that holds the bushing and the edge of the cross member. As long as the shims are not too big, I dont see a problem. I know that they make shims that are "U" shaped, that you could put toward the bushing and not make contact.

Are you saying that there is a rubber bushing hitting the cross member or is there a metal washer to stop the rubber, and that it is the metal washer that is contacting the cross member?
If you want to give some measurements on the arms, we can check the size as I have original arms.

[ga.spyder]

Sorry Pope,I am a little frustrated. The metal washer that holds the rubber is hitting the crossmember(both sides).I need about 1/16-1/8'',and the only way I see to get that is to grind a little off the crossmember.And,of course,that means removing the lower conrol arms.The car has been driven for 2 years with the shims as they are now,with very little tire wear.I was very careful that they went back like they came off.Is the amount of neg. camber enough to wear the tires abnormally? My twitchy feel is gone,it was caused by the toe.He admits it was way off,and he just missed somehow.He said that the tire wear could have been caused by this,also. I am not sure the right way to proceed.
Craig

[manoa matt]

Craig, are you saying the washer between the controll arm bushing and the pivot bolt sholder is the washer is preventing the controll arm from moving closer to the crossmember? http://www.flickr.com/photos/bigtimes_fiat/3514370666/

Even with no shims the pivot bolt should be able to sit flush against the crossmember without any interference from that washer. One side of my car does not have any shims and there are no clearance issues with those washers. Are there shims between the pivot bolt and the crossmember? If its the "washer" type, you can carefully grind those off without taking the whole suspension apart, just don't grind off the threads on the stud in the crossmember.

I had to do this before getting an alignment a few years ago. The car had washer type shims and if shims needed to be removed the mechanic would have to take the whole lower a arm off to do so. I jacked the car up and loosened the two pivot bolt nuts so the a arm could move out a hair. Then I gound down the washers on opposite sides, but did not grind all the way through. Then split the washer with a cold chisel and pryed it off and re-tightened the pivot pin bolts and drove to the shop.

[pope]

Negative camber is not a terrible thing. Usually gives you better corning. But can wear the tires unevenly, usually on the inside of the tire tread. Negative camber can be caused by lowering spring height, and by drawing bumpers in close to the body. OK, I might be fibbing about that one.

What I think is that the two ended bolt on the lower control arm rides on, has the washer stop points closer-in than the original. Up to a 1/4" overall, thus causing the discrepancy.

The fix is the executive decision of the owner. One could grind a little off the crossmember or replace the long control arm bolt with the original one if you have it. If that washer contacts the frame, that will increase the vibration in the body, somewhat deleting the object of the rubber bushings.
For kicks and giggles, can you measure the distance from one washer to the other to see what your distance is?

I have almost exactly 6 1/4" between washer ends. I hope that the washers are dished outwards towards the bushings.

[ga.spyder]

Matt and Pope...thanks..you guys are awesome. I will measure the bolt,between washers.Smart money is that stop points are what is causing the difference.This makes sense.I think I do have the originals that came out. Matt,they are the washer type shims and there are several there.The washer in the pic is preventing the con arm from moving closer to the crossmember.I can use your method to remove the shims,and grind down the washers enough to get clearance.
Funny,for shits and giggles I moved my rear tires to the front,and took her for a ride.The unsettled ride is gone,surely from the toe being out.Feels the best it has since I've owned it.If I was sure the tires wouldnt get screwed up,I would leave it like it is! I am going to fix it right,though. Thanks again,
Craig

[So Cal Mark]

if you are going road racing, -1 would be okay but not for everyday driving. You can live with the -1/2 but expect some tire wear on the inside edge. I cut those oem shim washers out rather than remove the arm. Besides a-arm dimensions being different, the other possibility is the body is collapsing in towards the engine

[ga.spyder]

The car is actually out -1/2 degree(drivers)and -1/4 degree on pass. side from being vertical.I think he told me +1/2 degree was the factory allowable spec.,so I added that in.The car feels great!I ran it with this setup for 2 years with only a bit of inside tire wear.Another interesting fact is that I found the washers are turned the wrong way :oops:By turning them toward the bushing,I may be able to gain what I need to move the con arms in.Can I do this w/o removing arm?It looks to me like I can.I dont have a spring compressor and would be forced to take it to a shop, if not.
Craig

[So Cal Mark]

-1/4 is ideal for spirited street driving, -1/2 is okay but will show some uneven wear

[ga.spyder]

Thanks,Mark I am not sure if I am going to do anything with it now.I am about 3/4 of the way through my tires that are on there.I may just monitor the wear for a while. The car feels really good right now. If I go ahead and remove the shims/con arm,I am going to just do the drivers side and have it set to -1/4 also.
Craig

[pope]

Craig, I only mentioned to see if the washers were on correctly and hoped they werent. The only way to turn those washers around is to remove the arm, put the arm on a press to force the A-arm bolt out, with the bushings. Did the washers come installed incorrectly. Didnt you buy the control arms that were already assembled?

[ga.spyder]

Pope,I would love to tell you that they came that way ,but....... I bought the uppers assembled,but got the parts and rebuilt the lowers.I ordered 2 new bushings,and will have to remove the arms to fix it correctly.Live and learn.I had a guy helping me and he actually put the arms together and pressed in the bushings.But I installed and tightened them .I will accept the Dumbass trophy and display it for all to see.If you hadnt mentioned the washers,I never would have caught it.
Craig