Suspension help required. Egads!

[djape1977]

is this the "i told you so" moment?

1/2 inch is way too much.

[phaetn]

Thanks for your help. Right back at ya:

4uall came by yesterday and we took a closer look since it was a warm day before a flash-freeze. We took more accurate measurements and it's probably a 1/4 inch difference between sides rather than a 1/2, but there's a clear difference between right and left tires and distance to the body. I know that's not the most accurate (body on frame may not be perfect) but it's still an indicator that something is amiss.

I spoke to the tech again and he thinks it must be castor: taking off a shim or two off at the fore point of the pivot bolt on the right side should bring the wheel forward a bit but by leave the rear shims in.

My other issue is that with the lowered front springs the upper control arms are almost touching the rubber bump stops so there's no travel left for the suspension. Either I can cut down the rubber stops or maybe slightly lower the back a wee bit and therefore raise the front. Measurements as of yesterday:

23.5" from ground to wheel well for both front wheels. This is definitely very low -- I can't even fit a low jack under the oil pan! It drops even more when I get in the car (down to 23"). I bet under those conditions the bottom of the exhaust downtube only has 3" clearance!
24.5" from ground to wheel well driver rear;
24" from ground to wheel well passenger rear.

I'll hopefully get it sorted in the spring!

Cheers,
phaetn

[AriK]

Phaetn, i've been following this thread closely. For comparison's sake i took some measurements on my 79 with Mark's progressive springs all the way around. The distance from the ground to the oil pan is 4'5 inches (oil plug does not protrude)
The height varies on all 4 corners from the ground to the wheel arch. Unladen i get these figures.
RR 23 3/4
RL 24
FR 23 1/2
FL. 22 3/4
Distance from front to rear (rim to rim with 13 " wheel) 89 3/4" spot-on, drivers side, same on passenger side.

The 3/4 inch droop on the FL existed with the last set of springs. Perhaps i should have ordered spring seats although visually they looked fine. Mark had mentioned that the alignment shouldn't have been accurate with a 3/4 inch droop on one side. Apparently with that amount of error there's no room to compensate. She seems to handle fine with no pull. Tire wear pattern was excellent with the previous springs.

My ride does not bottom out on the rubber stoppers.
Hope this helps.
Keep us posted with your results.
Ari

[phaetn]

Unladen i get these figures.
RR 23 3/4
RL 24
FR 23 1/2
FL. 22 3/4
Distance from front to rear (rim to rim with 13 " wheel) 75 3/4 spot-on, drivers side, same on passenger side.

The 3/4 inch droop on the FL existed with the last set of springs. Perhaps i should have ordered spring seats although visually they looked fine. Mark had mentioned that the alignment shouldn't have been accurate with a 3/4 inch droop on one side. Apparently with that amount of error there's no room to compensate. She seems to handle fine with no pull. Tire wear pattern was excellent with the previous springs.

My ride does not bottom out on the rubber stoppers.
Hope this helps.
Keep us posted with your results.
Ari

Ari, thanks so much for taking the time to measure! That's a real help!

It does let me know that at least the ride heights in and of themselves aren't so bad or off that the car can't drive. I saw yours travel for at least 1600km just fine.

How do your lower control arms look? Are they roughly parallel to the ground or are they higher at the ball joint than at the crossmember? It's amazing the change in the front end geometry by adding even a bit of weight in the trunk and compressing the springs. Both my fronts are 23.5" unladen so they are ok, I guess. They were up at 24" before the addition of the shims. I might squeeze the rear springs down just a weee bit, too, more to around your values to see if that gains me a bit at the front or might cut down the bump stops as Csaba has told me is sometimes necessary.

Isn't this fun?

Can't wait for our next road trip! We definitely have to check out some of the vintage racing at Mt. Tremblant some time. Or, for a longer distance, the Canadian Vintage Grand Prix at Mosport (June 17-19).

Cheers,
phaetn

[AriK]

The control arms are parallel to the ground. Don't compare images of my car taken during the FFO trip, i was riding on the old suspension at that time. I am led to believe that the PO may have lowered the car because only the rear end dropped slightly with the install'n of Mark's springs. I suspect that he cut the springs at a time before vendors started selling lowering springs.
I'm surprised at the fact that your technician charged a hefty amount to align the car. I did some research on alignment prices and from what i gather, these guys that charge exhorbitant prices give a warranty giving you access to free checks and adjustments over a long period of time (a couple of years or so). I'm sure that's the package that you got.
My tech was an old school kind of guy whom i doubt had access to any Fiat specs. He has aligned my car several years ago and it seemed to be a quick and very cheap procedure and tire wear patterns were spot on. He still wants me to return to him after i get some mileage on the car so that he re-torques the control arms, i'm wondering if i should bring him the specs you posted or should i just leave all well enough alone.
Don't mess with the shims yourself, allow your tech to figure out caster adjustments when you return in spring. That adjustment alone throws off the other readings. Let him do it again, if he knows that you're not happy he'll gladly make the necessary adjustments.
Meeting in Tremblant for the Vintage Racing sounds good, as well as meeting for Italian car day in Ottawa. As for Bowmanville, i'd rather travel twice that distance and do FFO 2016 instead.

[spiderdan]

Phaetn, I feel for you buddy.

4uall came by yesterday and we took a closer look since it was a warm day before a flash-freeze.

Should have called me, I would have brought a tape measure and some "lubricant".

Meeting in Tremblant for the Vintage Racing sounds good, as well as meeting for Italian car day in Ottawa.

Up for all of that next year. Hopefully I will have a 4th gear by then!
Tx for the thought of warm weather around the corner.

If you want to entertain a second opinion, I can point you in the direction of the experts that did my alignment. These guys were recommended by a few ICCO members and were very knowledgeable. They had to chisel out my washer type shims, which they claimed to be original to the car, before they could install their shims (they had many on hand).

We're here to help you get her sorted out come spring.

[phaetn]

Thanks, guys. You're the best!

I'm going to stick with Mars for now. I've paid (it was an extra 2hrs of labour) so I'm going to make sure they make it right. It if had just been an $80 job I could walk away, but I paid about three times that so I'm going to follow up with them for sure.

Cheers,
phaetn

[md88plt]

My car had a similar pull issue. It turned out to be my right brake line needed to be replaced. The right brake was just draging just enough to pull the car but not enough over heat the brake. Jusy my 2 cents.

[phaetn]

My car had a similar pull issue. It turned out to be my right brake line needed to be replaced. The right brake was just draging just enough to pull the car but not enough over heat the brake. Jusy my 2 cents.

Thanks for the reply. I was thinking of that as a possibility, as well as a bad bearing. I bought a laser thermometer and took readings: no difference on the discs from one side to the other and no contact was being made by the pad if no pressure applied.

Bearings might not be good either, so I have a new set to be installed. The difference in wheel position in the arch is suspicious, though.

Cheers,
phaetn

[Jimb]

My '85 Volumex is 22 3/4" to underside of wheel wells front and 24" rears...with stock 15" wheels. Of course that's with the fender flares.

Jim

[Frankd1]

Following your thread!

I noticed in the fall when I first aquired my 78 that there was a pull to the right, not all the time but sporadic, it seemed to do it while braking. I'll be looking at the brakes first but an alignment check is also in order.

For you Ontario guys, I'm in London, anybody know off hand of mechanics around here or in surrounding area that are familiar with doing a proper alignment on these cars?

Thanks for posting info on your alignment progress!

[phaetn]

Alignment is hit and miss. A lot of places don't even know that castor can be changed unless you bring in the manual. It think that's clearly the case with mine and at least they are going to make it right, hopefully later this week if I can get some time off.

I bought the A/R lowering springs, not the ones from Allison's. A caveat for anyone lowering the car and if you are on still on stock 13" wheels: it will *really* drop the car as with 15" wheels you're probably at least 1" higher (and I appreciate that it depends on the profile of the tire).

My '74 is the last year of the small bumpers so it was lower than other cars before, though its rear springs were shot so it was a bit of a tail dragger. The stance after installation was much better, but the front end was super-low: less than 4" clearance to the oil drain plug, and probably only 3.5" to the 4-2-1 downtube. Those measurements were also in December right after the springs where installed and I have pictures of 24" clearance to the front wheel wells; after a couple of weeks it dropped to about 23.5"; after the engine weight sitting on the springs for the three months of winter storage it could be even a bit more.

More of an issue is that the upper surface of the lower control arms didn't seem parallel to the ground -- there was a distinct rise from the cross member UP to the steering knuckle. More worrisome: even at rest with no driver weight in the car there was almost no space to the rubber bump stop. That means any compression at all and the upper control arm would press on the stop, putting stress on the frame of the car and negating any suspension action -- the car just wants to hop as it effectively bottoms out.

Not wanting to risk cutting brand-new progressive rear springs to drop the back end bit, thereby lifting the front, I Mickey-Moused it instead and installed some U-clamps, as suggested earlier in this thread. Now my heights from the ground to the apex of the wheel arch are as follows:



BEFORE
LF: 23.5" RF: 23.25"
LR: 24.5" RR: 24.25"

AFTER
LF: 23.5" RF: 23.5"
LR: 24" RR: 23.75"

That's a 1/2" drop at the rear. It ever-so slightly raised the front (not appearing so on the left front, but it may have been a bad first measurement). The left side numbers decrease with driver weight in the car. Eye-balling it seems to show a more parallel control arm plane.

Ari, this put my numbers exactly the same as yours in three corners, except for the front left. Yay!!

I'm still very close to the rubber bump stops so I know I have to cut those down.

Cheers,
phaetn

[phaetn]

Another update:

I cut off about 3/4 of an inch from the rubber bump stops, trying to angle the cut for when the upper control arm may contact it.

It totally transformed the handling. It was clearly riding on them before so the suspension had no give whatsoever except for what the tire deformation and pressure would allow. Night and day!

Even the pull to the right is better than before. It's still there and needs adjustment, but not nearly as pronounced.

I only drove it a handful of times so I hope I didn't stress the cross member and frame rails too much as they would have taken all the force since the control arm had no travel left...

Before (with control arm drooping because car was on jack stands):


After (3/4" cut off of rubber bump stop) - with weight on the car so this is free room for the control arm to move. Before there was barely any space whatsoever:

The cut was much cleaner on the other side...

Cheers,
phaetn

[phaetn]

Next project:


With 4uall's helps this weekend I might just have 4 Koni Yellows all around in time for the alignment re-do.

Cheers,
phaetn

[AriK]

Cool!
Wish i lived closer so i can come out and play