Failed AZ Emissions for NOX

[Apex]

If the timing adjustment doesn't work another easy option is adding a water drip. You can add a bottle or convert the windshield washer bottle, run a vacuum hose to it, and for good measure I'd put a valve in the line so you can control how much water is being sucked in. This will lower your NOX and also break up carbon deposits in the combustion chamber.

[So Cal Mark]

water injection will work, but you have to be very careful about how much water is injected

[seabeelt]

Not to hijack the thread, but has anyone used these folks for a replacement CAT?
https://www.catalyticconvertersonline.c ... ornia=True
Price is 183 for the California direct fit version

[TStark]

No experience with that unit,
but I installed this..well the weld shop guy did..
but it it very compact and not at all restrictive. and effective

http://www.jegs.com/i/Magnaflow/642/59953/10002/-1

[BNelsonAz]

If the timing adjustment doesn't work another easy option is adding a water drip. You can add a bottle or convert the windshield washer bottle, run a vacuum hose to it, and for good measure I'd put a valve in the line so you can control how much water is being sucked in. This will lower your NOX and also break up carbon deposits in the combustion chamber.

Okay, color me fascinated. How does this go together? Where does the drip ...uh...drip at...in?

[Apex]

All it takes is a reservoir to hold water, a small diameter hose (1/8" or so), and some restriction to the flow of water, like a valve. You just connect the hose from the bottle to a vacuum port on your intake manifold. The vacuum in the manifold draws the water in, it then gets drawn into the combustion chamber. The most important part as mentioned above (and I should have started from the start) is that too much water is not sucked in. Its hard to explain how much water is too much, but theres a reason they call it a water "drip." You don't want a steady stream of water going in, you want it to be dripping in, which only requires most valves to be cracked open. It won't take much water to get that car within specs, and too much water will hydrolock the engine because water doesn't compress. It takes a significant amount of water to do that though, like when a cold air intake goes into a puddle and sucks it up like a straw haha. If anyone has a good way to explain how much water is too much I'd love to hear it. The installation is very simple for a person of any mechanical aptitude, and as long as you just open that valve a little the threat of hydrolocking is near nonexistent.

[BNelsonAz]

All it takes is a reservoir to hold water, a small diameter hose (1/8" or so), and some restriction to the flow of water, like a valve. You just connect the hose from the bottle to a vacuum port on your intake manifold. The vacuum in the manifold draws the water in, it then gets drawn into the combustion chamber. The most important part as mentioned above (and I should have started from the start) is that too much water is not sucked in. Its hard to explain how much water is too much, but theres a reason they call it a water "drip." You don't want a steady stream of water going in, you want it to be dripping in, which only requires most valves to be cracked open. It won't take much water to get that car within specs, and too much water will hydrolock the engine because water doesn't compress. It takes a significant amount of water to do that though, like when a cold air intake goes into a puddle and sucks it up like a straw haha. If anyone has a good way to explain how much water is too much I'd love to hear it. The installation is very simple for a person of any mechanical aptitude, and as long as you just open that valve a little the threat of hydrolocking is near nonexistent.

Cool! Does this work the same with my FI Spider?

[So Cal Mark]

the amount of water injected has to be very little. I've seen people warp exhaust valves experimenting with this. If you want to try it, get a spray bottle and mist into the afm and watch how the motor reacts

[BNelsonAz]

the amount of water injected has to be very little. I've seen people warp exhaust valves experimenting with this. If you want to try it, get a spray bottle and mist into the afm and watch how the motor reacts

Oooh not good. Maybe I should look at this as a last resort...

Thanks, Mark

[majicwrench]

The car will pass wo some "water drip" the very sound of which makes me cringe. Talk about mickey mouse....

[BNelsonAz]

The car will pass wo some "water drip" the very sound of which makes me cringe. Talk about mickey mouse....

Hi Mac,

Anything you can think of besides taking the timing to 7% and checking the Cat?

Thanks,

Bill

[Apex]

The car will pass wo some "water drip" the very sound of which makes me cringe. Talk about mickey mouse....

There is nothing "mickey mouse" about changing the chemical composition inside the combustion chamber to lower temperatures and therefore lower NOX. But you seem to think "the car will pass" without doing anything, seeing as you offered absolutely nothing constructive. I am a former technician of a shop that specialized in classic Italian cars, and have used this trick many times. Here in California we have very strict emissions requirements for post 1975 cars, and catalytic converters are rarely financially feasible, especially compared to the $10 cost of adding a water drip that you can remove as soon as the vehicle passes the emissions test. Also if you had bothered to read the rest of the thread the first and best suggestion is changing the ignition timing.
Marks suggestion of a spray bottle is also a great idea! If you're still that concerned about the amount of water that is going to be injected you can spend the extra money and buy an induction delivery tool, it has a bottle, see through drip, and a valve, everything you need and will be very easy to monitor the liquid. http://www.edwardsracingengines.com/tools.html
And yes, it works the same on carbureted or fuel injected vehicles.

[majicwrench]

So this "water drip" is legal?? And this shop put it on customers cars to pass EM??

I can picture it now, filling washer bag w water, hooking the hose up to the intake somewhere, and presto!! Um, how much do I "spray/drip"??? As clouds of steam puff from the tailpipe in the test bay, or the engine locks, or like Mark said valve issues.....

I have a better idea, why don't we fix what is wrong with car rather than add some mickey mouse bandaid?? I don't know the numbers, but I bet scads of Fiats pass Em inspections without water injection. So can this one. Like was said, NOX is from too much heat and/or pressure. Timing needs to be checked, and perhaps retarded a few degrees. Engine needs to run at proper temp, and EGR needs to work properly. Car is just barely over the limit, (see I read the whole post) it will not take much to bring it down.
BNelsn, have you checked the timing yet?? That is the very first thing. Does your EGR work?? Do you know how to test it?? Engine full of coolant, not overheating??

I think it is very constructive to help people avoid making mistakes they will regret.

A spray bottle?????????? Might have to read that again, not sure how a spray bottle is gonna help Bnelson pass...
EDIT read back about the spray bottle, still not sure what ?? Is OP supposed to spray water into his AFm and .......what?? Watch the NOX numbers change?? I think not. Let's fix whatever is wrong with his car.

[So Cal Mark]

I suggested "testing" with a spray bottle so that he can guage what effect the water will have on how the engine runs with water injection. It's a lot easier to experiment with a spray bottle than to rig up injection.
So besides checking initial timing, check the advance since your motor is being tested on a dyno. Too much advance will cause high Nox. I've seen many distributors with missing or stretched advance springs. You also need to set the CO level towards the high limit since a richer mixture will lower combustion temps. A properly working cooling system is also critical.
If you're not sure how to check your CO, attach a voltmeter to the O2 sensor, hold the throttle at 2500rpm and adjust the AFM to get a voltage reading of .450.

[majicwrench]

His issue is not how the car runs, it the NOX. Spraying water at engine in driveway is not going to accomplish anything.

And just to clarify...on a voltmeter the O2 is never going to just sit at .45 volts. It should be ranging from .1 to .9 volts, but most the time hang around center. What you don't want is a reading that tends to always be low (.1 - .2) or high (.

If O2 does just sit still at one voltage, it is bad.