FI performance

[BEEK]

my current project is a efi lancia scorpion. all be it a little off topic. but the engine is the same. this project is still in the planning stages. my goal is 225hp from a 2.0. 13-1 compression, big valve head ported and polished, dry sump oiling. windage tray, crank scraper, aftermarket cams. looking into aftermarket throttle body, on a dcoe manifold. custom exhaust, mark we'll talk. jason miller has many parts as well that will be on my car as well. its not an open budget so im looking hard on bang for the buck. megasquirt is definatly the system im looking into. ill be asking many questions reguarding maping and such from those whom have done this already. as i am a carburator guy. ive worked with the l jetronic system on my zagato and spiders, the lancia system has a few benifits, a way better manifold, a replacable throttle body, ie. weber 60cfl. got 175hp out of a street zagato, 10-1 compression with a reworked efi system, head mods, cams.different injectors and a jap afm. but ive always felt the afm was a big restriction and limiting factor. just some thoughts. im also looking for some advice so im all ears.

[ClarkTheShark]

yea my NA maps are pretty much finished. however it never ends. i can tweak stuff out in my backyard till i run a couple tanks through it. i just ordered my MS3 chip so ill be able to run sequential injection and a few other minor cool stuff. definitely order your kit from DIYautotune.com. definitely get the relay board. i even have my system controlling my cooling fan. (no more quirky bimetalic radiator switch). You'll want to go the ford EDIS route. parts are readily available in a junkyard. youll need to find a 4 cylinder car for the module.(93 or so merc tracer or ford escort) but the coilpacks and crank sensor are interchangeable from 8 cylinder cars..i also made my own relay cable out of cat5 network cable and wrapped it all split loom. Innovate makes a an awesome 02 sensor... really fast and accurate readings. turned out to be a very reliable system. Ive done it on two cars so far so if you need any help along the way let me know. its really a lot of work and requires some dedication.... but we drive a Fiat so you know all about dedication..

[wmausbach]

Beek,
225 hp is not attainable with a two valve head. Two recent threads are from E Prod Racer with his all out racer (205hp) and Sptcoupe with his (180hp) Coupe. Both of these are documented with actual dyno runs with specifications. They are also not cheap. Read both of these as far as I know they are both high water marks. Guy Croft in his book never showed a natually aspirated 124 engine over 200hp. Supercharging and Turbo did achieve these levels but with the four valve head.
The point is that HP is not cheap. The two examples I mentioned are honest examples of a top competition engine and the hottest street engine. Belive me a 180 real hp is quite a thrill. There is a lot of wishfull dreaming on these forums and somtimes a reality check need to be made.
Ciao
Wayne

[BEEK]

not to argue, but i have done it already. have run on a superflow chassis dyno 205hp @rear wheels. it was an all out race motor carburated,i realy think i can do better with fuel injection. as there are no rules. an im all to awair of the cost. had close to 5,000.00 in that motor. unfortunatly an oiling problem claimed its life after 1200 laps. used stock rods too. stress relieved and polished. turned 8500 rpm no rod failures, arp bolts though. reprofiled internationals largest lift cams. still have those going to use dry sump this time

current project will include ferrea 7mm stem titainum valves. still trying to see how big i can go on the intake side. might try angle milling head. to keep chamber size down. but need all the room i can get on the intake side. i do alot of reprofiling inside the combustion chamber as well, make it more hemispherical. im concerned about the flame front because of the large dome im going to have to use to get the compression racio. lots of clay and mock up time.

ill try and see if i can find the dyno files from the 124 coupe race car. but i think all thats lost as it was done in 2001-2002

if i can find a 16v head i will try that. just havent seen anything available. will have to be a later production one as abarth 16v is way to expensive. the late production has the intake and exhaust sides reversed, thats not a terrable problem, but i wonder if with new valve seats and porting there is enough material to turn the heads back around, as manifolds will be custom anyway.

[baltobernie]

Not to argue, but if you can produce 235-250 SAE HP from an 8-valve, normally-aspirated 2-litre engine, you should ring up Ford Motorsports, who are only getting 300 Hp from a 2-litre turbocharged Focus race car. These engines, including the 315 HP Citroen C4, have got to be considered state-of-the-art, as both these companies are spending 60-90 million dollars per year to compete in the WRC.

[BEEK]

if im not mistaken lancia made 350+ hp from a 1.4 turbo motor in 1980
http://www.lanciamontecarlo.net/Monteca ... turbo.html
http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/car/1104 ... Turbo.html
seems as from 370 to 490 wow, maybe ford needs to have a better idea
granted its a 4 valve but sheesh isnt the focus a 4 valve?

[baltobernie]

Yes, the WRC Focus uses a 4-valve head and a host of other modifications that befit a pure racing engine.

I think the "Killer B" Lancia rally cars of the 1980's made 500+ HP from 1.8 litres.

The 2.4 litre F1 engines (normally-aspirated) of 2006+ produce 700+ HP. These guys probably spend $60 million per race

What's your point?

Look, I don't want to start a flame war here. You obviously have a great deal of experience in building and racing 4-cylinder Fiat and other cars. I value your input to the forum, and have learned from you and everyone else. But I am suggesting that the horsepower figure you're stating for the engine in question is inaccurate.

The Lotus Exige S weighs about the same as a Spider, but has 240 HP, approximately what your dyno claimed. I don't know if you've driven this particular car, but I don't believe any Fiat Spider, anywhere, anytime, has ever gone 0-60 in four seconds.

[BEEK]

Not to argue, but if you can produce 235-250 SAE HP from an 8-valve, normally-aspirated 2-litre engine, you should ring up Ford Motorsports, who are only getting 300 Hp from a 2-litre turbocharged Focus race car. These engines, including the 315 HP Citroen C4, have got to be considered state-of-the-art, as both these companies are spending 60-90 million dollars per year to compete in the WRC.

again, no anomosity. just a friendly discussion. i just thought you were saying that ford was spending 60+ million a year to make 300hp, i was pointing out that lancia made quit a bit more from less, and im sure less money spent too
but again im also sure of my rwhp #'s from the superflow dyno. not flamning or anything else. just a friendly discussion.
i will take many pictures and keep the board up on the progress of my lancia motor project, right down to the dyno test.

this dyno also confirmed the arca restrictor plate sb2's we ran made 450hp with the plate on. which was exactly what gibbs told us they would make. my asphalt late models made 675hp from a 358cu in v8 with a 650 carb. also on this dyno. those cars are a blast to drive at 2800 lbs
i all to well understand what i call "highschool horsepower" vs real horsepower. honestly i didnt think my results were all that good. ill have to go over some notes from john baucom, i belive he did way better than this in his racers.

relativly speeaking my late models made 4.14 lbs/hp vs my coupe at 8.33, all figures are aproximate your results may very

[baltobernie]

Yes, just "bench racing" (Nothing much else to do here with 100°, humidity and foul air . )

[BEEK]

not good air to make horsepower in, on the bench or otherwise. very nasty hot here too and humid

[baltobernie]

I knew we'd agree on something

[Zmatt]

The group B cars made a lot more power than the current WRC cars. but the current class has several restrictions that keep peak HP and torque numbers low. I think they are more concerned with power band and reliability than out an out power nowadays. that and on dirt there is only so much power you can really use. I'm sure Ford could make more power if they deemed it as beneficial.

Since we are "bench racing" here. i think its possible to do 225hp on an FI TC engine. however I think it would need an SC or Turbo to do it reliably. A good tune on a megasquirt with a modern ball bearing turbo is very effective. We have a lot of technology at our disposal in 2010 that Fiat, Abarth, Serra, or anyone else had 20 years ago. Really such an engine would only be Fiat in the short block only. The entire fuel system would likely be custom or scavenged form other cars. The intake and exhaust systems would be custom. There would be a lot of new hardware. The Lancia integrale 8v which used an engine derivative of this one achieved 185hp and that was in the 80's.

[baltobernie]

Well, yeah, the Group B cars were essentially F1 drivetrains in a production sedan silhouette race car. Also agree that today's WRC cars are capable of more HP than they are delivering. They have mufflers and catalysts, for example. But I often hear Hirvonen talking about being down on power vs. the C-4, and with those trick diffs and transfer cases, I betcha they can get down as much power as the designers can make. Of course, "you've got to finish to win" applies too, like you say.

Also agree that the Fiat TC cast iron block is probably capable of surviving 225 BHP and a lot more, and that with today's technology in EFI and turbo's, that number is achievable. 235-250 normally aspirated with 8 valves and pump gas? Don't think so, but it'd be a helluva ride while it lasted.

[Zmatt]

Well, yeah, the Group B cars were essentially F1 drivetrains in a production sedan silhouette race car. Also agree that today's WRC cars are capable of more HP than they are delivering. They have mufflers and catalysts, for example. But I often hear Hirvonen talking about being down on power vs. the C-4, and with those trick diffs and transfer cases, I betcha they can get down as much power as the designers can make. Of course, "you've got to finish to win" applies too, like you say.

Also agree that the Fiat TC cast iron block is probably capable of surviving 225 BHP and a lot more, and that with today's technology in EFI and turbo's, that number is achievable. 235-250 normally aspirated with 8 valves and pump gas? Don't think so, but it'd be a helluva ride while it lasted.

yeah for that power you need race gas and/or a blower of some kind. Remember the BMW M10 block was used in F1 for 1500hp. Anything is possible. You just have to have the technology, the money and the balls to do it.

[BEEK]

the gas at the pump i use is 112 octane