firearms

[NJFIAT1981]

The answer to question #1 is simple. The laws are not being enforced. It's not the cop driving around in the patrol car or walking the beat. They love nothing better than latching on to some turd (oops did I say that) that just broke into your home, stole your car, robbed the local WAWA, is selling drugs or just mugged a little old 80 year old woman. They live for that.
The problem is the court system and the politicians. The courts plea bargain everything that they can. They don't want to go to trial. Costs too much. So the bad guy pleas to the lesser charge and does a little jail time (maybe) but most likely probation and is back out on the street to commit more mayhem.
So the cop is locking these folks up. They make bail and the case goes before a grand jury. The prosecutor decides if he wants to try the case and usually pleas the charges to avoid court. The cycle goes on and on.
Question 2 is interesting. we have a generation to two of folks that will not accept responsibility for their actions. There is no parenting going on. Broken homes, poverty, single parent households, lack of valid roll models, total dependence on government programs, and a long list of other excuses.

In reference to the question at hand. GUNS
Our forefathers made sure that the people of the United States had the means to protect themselves from crime and if need be the government itself. Second Amendment to the Constitution.
Every now and again some evil person gets their hands on a weapon or weapons and goes on a shooting spree. Yes these are pure acts of evil committed by cowards. Schools, churches, malls or anywhere they can inflict carnage on helpless victims. When confronted by the police they usually kill themselves. Ever notice they don't attack the police station.
So do we disarm all the law abiding citizens so that only criminals and mass murders can have firearms?
How many rights would you be willing to give up for the promise of safety? I'm not willing to give up any of mine. Too many people that came before me died to allow me to keep those rights.

[djape1977]

what about the fact that all of shooting spree incidents happened with the legal guns?
aren't you afraid that some day your kid might want to take your gun and go get revenge for getting beaten in school by bullies?

btw, arguments about second ammendment are mostly bull, because your founding fathers had no way of foreseeing what society and firearms will look like in 200 years

[fiat218]

what about the fact that all of shooting spree incidents happened with the legal guns?
aren't you afraid that some day your kid might want to take your gun and go get revenge for getting beaten in school by bullies?

btw, arguments about second ammendment are mostly bull, because your founding fathers had no way of foreseeing what society and firearms will look like in 200 years

Shit happens.
U can't worry about things u can't control, Do you hide your steak knifes sorry but it not the weapon that kills,it the person behind it,
Do you worry that your going to get hit on the road and be killed ?

[RRoller123]

NJFIAT1981, you have it exactly right. At the State and City level, the plead-outs is the biggest single problem, and the reality is the Judicial branch doesn't want to have to end up locking up huge portions of the lower classes, with the commensurate prison construction and staffing that it would take. They can't get the funds from their Legislative branches, even if they had the will to do it. Multigenerational government dependency has taken a terrible toll on our society, destroyed family units, etc. and the follow on crime and drug abuse is just the predictable result.

There is no need, for me anyway, to take this any further, so I am going to leave this discussion (really, this time). If those of us who live outside of the US wish to have a disarmed population, fine, do as you see fit in your own sovereign nation. But it will not happen here.

[fiat218]

NJFIAT1981, you have it exactly right. At the State and City level, the plead-outs is the biggest single problem, and the reality is the Judicial branch doesn't want to have to end up locking up huge portions of the lower classes, with the commensurate prison construction and staffing that it would take. They can't get the funds from their Legislative branches, even if they had the will to do it. Multigenerational government dependency has taken a terrible toll on our society, destroyed family units, etc. and the follow on crime and drug abuse is just the predictable result.

There is no need, for me anyway, to take this any further, so I am going to leave this discussion (really, this time). If those of us who live outside of the US wish to have a disarmed population, fine, do as you see fit in your own sovereign nation. But it will not happen here.

about time

[Kevin1]

what about the fact that all of shooting spree incidents happened with the legal guns?
aren't you afraid that some day your kid might want to take your gun and go get revenge for getting beaten in school by bullies....

Unless you are trying to imply this would have been o.k. had the gun been obtained illegally this doesn't even begin to matter. Do keep in mind that while these shootings are perfect as media fodder, statistically, in a nation of 300 million, they are largely numerically insignificant. There is no minimizing the tragedy of any homicide, but we have to insist that intellect rule over emotion when parsing such difficult subjects.

And, no, I am not afraid that my kids will "go to get revenge". They have been raised well and understand the scope -and limits- of their rights in a free society.

btw, arguments about second ammendment are mostly bull, because your founding fathers had no way of foreseeing what society and firearms will look like in 200 years

This comment is completely dismissable. What the framers of the Consitiution understood well was human nature, which hasn't changed much throughout history. They also understood tyrranical rule, and respected an individual's inherent desire for freedom and self-government. The defining difference between our Constitution and ALL other countries foundational law is illustrated in one concept. These rights are inalienable, inherently part of the human condition and not priveliges granted by government. As such they can not be denied by government. The 2nd ammendment is instrumental in the preservation and exercise of those rights, but it does not exist in a vacuum. It goes hand in hand with every other right enumerated in within the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

Liberty, to put it in simple terms, is a package deal. You can never have it unless you grant it to everyone. All or none, that's how it works. Easy enough in theory but difficult in practice.

Please try to first understand what something really is before you decide to unravel it.

[Tuc124]

I think everyone had covered it all. A prosperous and happy Nre Year to all!

[fiat218]

I think everyone had covered it all. A prosperous and happy Nre Year to all!

AMEN, TO THAT

[fiat218]

Speaking of non firearm violence
We got a bomber in Russia . Geesh
( HAD ) I mean

[NJFIAT1981]

Now djape1977. Adam Lanza the Ct. school shooter had tried to purchase a firearm but was refused by the FFL dealer because he didn't want to fill out the correct paperwork. He would not have cleared the mental health checks. He was able to obtain a firearm illegally by one simple act. He murdered his mother. So the firearms he used were not obtained legally. Others were able to obtain them because they were not in the mental health system yet
Yes some of the mentally ill were able to get their hands on firearms and commit mass murders. But do we ban all weapons because of the acts of a few ill or evil persons.
More people are killed each year in the US by drunk drivers then by firearms. Shouldn't we ban automobiles? Think of all the lives that will be saved. Everyone can use public transportation. Or we could require interlock devices in all automobiles. You will have to give a breath sample before you can start your auto. ( I know that you don't drink and drive but you will be willing to do it to save lives right?)
Now here's what I suggest you do. Take your legally owned and registered firearms down to the local police station. Turn it in and request that it be destroyed. When the local police person asks you why tell them that you want to safe guard the public in case your weapons ever fall into the wrong hands. You can also tell them that NJFIAT1981 guarantees your safety now. So now that I guarantee your safety you have no need of any weapons. It is for the good of the public so you won't mind giving up your rights. The government is telling you the same thing. Do you believe them?
Oh by the way. Even though I said I'm going to guarantee your safety it's probably not going to work out that when you need me I'll be around to help you out. I'll be just like the police. It's usually over long before the police get there. I might catch the bad guy later. It will make the papers when I catch him the next day. Right next to your obituary.
BTW- You can't sue the police for not protecting you. You can't sue the government either.

[NJFIAT1981]

Jim,
Make that two bombers. Talk about evil mass murderers

[NJFIAT1981]

BTW- The weapons obtained for use at Columbine high school were all obtained illegally. That's right. Look it up. A girlfriend purchased those weapons for the killers even though they were too young to purchase them. Illegal transaction. The pistol was also purchased illegally. It was purchased illegally from a pizza shop employee who knew the suspects were too young to legally own firearms.. Just wanted to clear up any misinformation about those being legal weapons. They were obtained illegally

[fiat218]

You guys must do a lot of searching to get all this info , good thing I posted weapons

[Martin124]

There is no need, for me anyway, to take this any further, so I am going to leave this discussion (really, this time). If those of us who live outside of the US wish to have a disarmed population, fine, do as you see fit in your own sovereign nation. But it will not happen here.

Thank you to everyone for this debate. I certainly feel that I have an understanding of the depth of feeling of US citizens about the "right to bear arms" now. I still don't mind that we are a disarmed population, mainly because we don't have any real reason to fear a large number of our own population and also because we are more trustful of our government. I really do get it now and I don't think it is our place (as foreigners) to criticize the US people for their stance on guns. It is for them to decide what is is the right way ahead.

What this thread has made me think about is; how far are we (Australians) away from having the same problems that occur now in the US regarding violent segments within our society. Australian society has always been heavily influenced, in my lifetime anyway, by the US example. Maybe we will one day be looking to rearm?

[abcman3000]

I was criticized for posting a pic of a woman in miniskirt sitting in a Fiat spider. The pic was judged obscene and removed even if the woman was dressed.
I was told this is a family forum. Now I see a whole topic dedicated to guns ?

Just makes me sad...very sad.

Happy new year everyone