Almost got the car ready to start

[wikkid]

You know when you are pushing things, and it's getting late, and then, WHAM!, something happens to tell you it's time to call it quits for the day?

This evening, I have hooked up all the hoses around new fuel pump and filter, and even a pre-pump filter. Just hook up the electrical connections and start 'er up, right? Wrong. The big, positive female connector to the pump just crumbled when I went to fit it to the new pump positive post. So now I have to go find a new female terminal to fit onto the wire, as well as a new protective hood, since the old one doesn't seem to want to pull back from the connector.

Today was a slow day, in terms of progress made. See also my brake bleeding post: http://www.fiatspider.com/f08/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=12034

[mdrburchette]

Jobs always take longer than you'd expect or want. Just keeping hanging in there and you'll get her going!

[wikkid]

Update: First, thanks, Denise, for straightening me out on the brakes issue.

New fuel pump is in - got a bt of 8mm FI hose from a BMW shop in town. I had to look in 3 auto parts stores, Lowes and Radio shack to find a new female crimp connector for the positive (big) lead to the fuel pump. Found them at a Napa store.

Anyway, all is good, but there was no pump action. So I took the intake from the air flow sensor, flapped the flap, and "Whizzz, squirt!" Fuel pumping and zipping through the injectors. I crank the car, and it almost starts, igniting the fuel that I had just injected. But no more firing after that. This scenario is infinitely repeatable, but no change. A neighbor tried cranking while I help the flap open, but it would not stay running. The flap moves freely, and snaps back cleanly.

It seems like the air flow sensor is not telling the pump to run, unless I flip the flap manually. I am going searching for more diagnostic and troubleshooting info on the FI system, but meanwhile, anyone have a clue what is going on, or rather, what is not happening that should, and what I can do to fix it? I suppose an air leak is probable, since it doesn't seem that the air flow flap is getting enough air to move. The intake "big black plenum thing" is in great shape - I have taken it off and inspected it for any cracks, but it is like new. Hoses could be suspect, or seals at the injectors. Hard to tell without the car running - no way to use carb cleaner to do a spray test.

Any thoughts or ideas?

Thanks,
Chris

PS the car sounds terrific when it (almost) runs on the initial bit of fuel - very strong and even, especially for a car last registered in 2001.

[jimincalif]

Are the injectors firing? It might be trying to start on the first squirt of fuel from the cold start injector, but the main injectors may not be.

[wikkid]

The only time I hear any pump sound and any sound of fuel is when I have the flap opened manually. I may be wrong, but it doesn't sound as if any gas gets to the engine otherwise(neither to the injectors nor to the cold start setup). I can crank and crank with everything closed up, as if I were ready to go for a drive, and the fuel pump does not come on at all. That's why I went and operated the flap manually - just to be sure that the power was getting to the pump. I had replaced its fuse which was blown, I replaced a crumbled connector and I replaced the pump - so it was a way of being sure it was not an electrical problem with wiring to the pump.

[narfire]

Perhaps disconect the fuel line to the aux valve and then crank. A great gob of fuel should come out if you quickly turn the engine over without manualy opening the flap.(fuel will flow when you manually open the flap of course) If so then fuel is going to the injectors. I recently undid the 10 mm nut holding the retaining ring on # 1 cylinder and pulled the injector out. I then put a clean dry piece of towel at the injector and cranked again. It was wet so I had fuel, A noids light will let you know if you have power to the injectors, but the little internal filter could be plugged. We trust they are grounded(two wires on the electric cable bundle to the intake plenum).

When mucking about with the fuel like this,good idea to have a fire extinguisher real close, and mop up any spilt fuel quickly.

[wikkid]

Just cranking the car, the engine stays bone dry (no fuel). It seems that something is not telling the fuel pump to start up and deliver.

narfire, which part do you mean when you refer to the "aux valve?"

Just a thought, re the fuel pressure regulator: when I went to release pressure in the fuel lines, I hooked up a vacuum pump per the manual. Isn't the pressure supposed to be released backwards, into the tank? The vacuum held at 25, no release. Fortunately, with the car having sat, I didn't have much gas in the lines when I went to disconnect the pump and filter.
Would the pressure regulator be a possible cause of preventing gas from getting to the engine? How can you tell if it's bad?

[mdrburchette]

Okay, I'm not too familiar with FI systems, but there is a metal thingy inside the air flow meter that may not be making contact when you try to crank the engine. I had a similar problem with my 82 X19 so I removed the black, plastic cover off the AFM and gently bent the metal tab thingy so it would make contact. Maybe someone else knows what I'm talking about and can explain it a little better.

[wikkid]

I know exactly what you are talking about, and I just don't know whether my manual test of the AFM by moving the flap and thereby operating the pump is enough to show that the AFM is functioning. I mean, if it can send the signal when I open the flap by hand, shouldn't it also be doing this when it is sealed up and air flow is opening the flap?

I'm giving myself a crash course in FI operations, thanks to some links provided by other members on this forum (hooray for search function). I have a lot of testing to do. It seems that current flow comes to the fuel pump via 2 different paths, one for starting, and one for running. Both are through the double relay near the ECU. I have to diagnose that system.
In one path, it's the ignition switch power that activates one relay connection to tell the fuel pump to run, while the other relay connection is triggered by the AFM. It could be that the relay is not triggering power to the pump at crank/startup (I can't hear any pump operation or fuel flow during that phase), but that the AFM signal, as tested manually, if fine, and would work just fine if I were able to get the car started up.

Not sure yet, so testing is in order on this, as well as some of the mechanical stuff, like the fuel pressure regulator, the aux. air valve, the injectors and the cold start injector, and just basic stuff like good grounds and no leaky hoses.

I kind of love having great instructions or manuals to follow, and going through steps to hunt down and fix problems. It usually means the car gets checked out in all sorts of ways you wouldn't otherwise necessarily do.

Fortunately it's getting cold for much fun riding, so we go into winter tinker-mode.

[narfire]

I undid the hose to the cold start valve, guess that is what I ment by the aux valve... sorry. Anyway first push the afm flap with the ignition on.. fuel comes out? yes then the circut should be working as when you crank, the engine pulls the air in,allbeit not much, but enough to move the flap.
If fuel is not flowing from the cold start valve hose then you do have an issue at the pump,electrical.
Out of curiosity,does the fuel filter only flow one way? I'd think not, but weirder things have happened.
Good luck
Chris

[wikkid]

fuel filter.... hmmmm. It has an arrow showing direction of flow, but I have no idea if it is able to also flow the other way, No idea why it would, though, since there's a return line from the fuel pressure regulator.

[narfire]

I was just thinking about some of the daft things I have done in the past.(plug leads to wrong cylinders ect.)
I do hope it is simple. I hav'nt any time with carbs for 34 years but I find the FI system kinda easy to sort out now after dealing with mine for the past 3 years.
Good luck, hope you can sort it out before long.

[kuhndg]

I expierenced the same problem with one of my cars a couple of weeks ago. Start with the fuel tank. My tank was corroded and had flakes of rust on the bottom of the tank. I replaced the tank and blew out the pump and filter and she fired right up. Just a thought.

[rlux4]

If your fuel pump runs when you move the flap manually the signal from both sources is getting to the dual relay (ignition switch and AFM flap). It sounds like Denise is on the right track. It could be that you're moving the flap more by hand than it gets moved by air intake on cranking, so the contact isn't being made when cranking. Try removing the black plastic cover from the AFM and, while a helper is cranking the engine, watch to see if the contact points are touching. It's probably just a matter of a little tweak on the contact arm.
Ron

[wikkid]

I opened the AFM, and made sure the sweep contact was touching the contact surface. With a neighbor cranking, I could see the silver metal arm bouncing off that little copper contact strip, opening and closing the connection with each crank of the engine - the sweep contact assembly, in other words, just bouncing up and back a little bit from the resting point. I assume that little silver arm has to be off the copper strip to allow that contact to close for something important to happen.... just don't know what, and if the bouncing open/shut is a problem or not.
I also loosened the tension on the big coil spring in there by 5 teeth, to help that flap open a little easier.

I changed plugs while I had the big intake hose off once again, double checking for leaks, and I cleaned up the contacts in the distributor cap and the rotor.

I am now getting good (35 psi) pressure at the cold start injector hose when the ignition key is in the "run" position with the AFM flap held open. So the fuel pump and lines and fuel pressure regulator seem good.

Unfortunately, I mucked up the 8mm hose from the rail to the CSI in pulling it off and replacing it for the pressure test, so now it has a pinhole in it and I need to learn how to replace the hose with that metal seat down at the rail. Question: Do I just have to twist and rock the old hose and collar off, or is it just better/easier to slit it open and make it come off easier? Hard to believe that pressurized connection works without any clamp!

Edit: pain in the neck to get the old hose bits out of the collar, so the collar would come out. New hose in. Resistance reading for the coil in the cold start injector was 3.4 ohms. I understood 2 - 3 ohms to be what you are shooting for, so I don't know if this is a bad sign, or within tolerance.

Next step, see if the cold start injector is clogged, check others.

I re-charge the battery after each of these cranking sessions, to be sure the battery doesn't become the issue.

Any other thoughts?