no love for fiat

[puddin]

i live in MD and found a great parts place called DiFatta Bros. great guys very knowlegdable-- anyway i sitting around BS ing and learned that most folks think Fiat takes a back seat to Alpha .... why -- how did this start-- was it performance or quality?

[Daniel]

how did this start

It was an Alfa Owner named Ben he has some type of European accent drives a blue Alfa Spider owns a 3 legged Dog with one eye missing his tail is bent in a funny shape and is named Lucky, this guy also wears a Alfa Belt Buckle all the time and a Alfa Key chain keep an eye out for him if you spot him let us know !

[gary124sport]

Didn't he do Elaine and her mother too?

[jimincalif]

Didn't he do Elaine and her mother too?

Hey, hey, hey....

[Zmatt]

well Alfa has a richer racing history than Fiat. Back int he day before Ferrari Alfa was a big name in gran prix racing. Fiat, not so much, they were always the toyota of Italy. producing the cars for your average itlians. Whereas Alfa, Maserati, Ferrari and Lambo got all the glory. Which is funny cause some of Alfa's best cars used Fiat technology.

[Daniel]

well Alfa has a richer racing history than Fiat

Your right in that sense sure but i think in the general understand here in the USA people tend to think of
Fiats as the under dog when compared with there rival Alfas . Why this is i can only think of the cost
of the cars when they were new, Alfas were more expensive and had FI before Fiats did . Side by side a
Fiat Spider weights less then an Alfa Spider I've never seen a NA 2000cc Alfa produce more power when fully
built vs a Fiat 2000cc engine .

Even talking to (some) Alfa owners not all of them seem this way have a perception when talking about there
Cars as having an Edge over the Fiat counterpart . If you purchased an Alfa and started restoring the car will
see the price difference in parts immediately .

The Milano i bought and later sold was nice to drive wasn't fast smaller 2.5 v6 but smooth on the road didn't
seem like a bad car at all till it needed flex joints to be replaced . Normally this wouldn't seem like a big deal
to change them out if you work on your own cars but after finding all 3 (Yes 3) Rubber Donuts on the drive shaft
that needed to be replaced at a cost of about $250 just for the 3 flex joints i wasn't so impressed with my cool
new toy to drive around . Then changing the Flex joint in the bell housing area where the clutch (Clutch located on
the rear) normally would of been was far more work then necessary IMO . If only they made a service plate or portion
of the bell housing that could of been removed 30 mins job tops ! instead of hours .

I do like some of the Older Alfa Romeo styling a lot and the 1991 Spider and up was really good looking to me
along with the newer cars like the Mito (maybe the 500s Rival) as well as the 159 and of course the C8 now this
car looks amazing !

Mito




159


C8

[puddin]

these alpha's look sweat and expensive-- ithink it would be really cool if the new fiat's get popular in the us and maybe they could make a retro 124 -- maybe we could get some new 15inch wheels with 4x98 bolt pattern cheap. let's start a rally for a retro 124 in the us...

[puddin]

just thought of a great personalized tag -- UNDRGRD (UNDERGRADUATE) get it alph was in the movie The Graduate and since fiat is under alpha -- there u go== just remember to send the royalty check to puddin

[Daniel]

maybe they could make a retro 124

Hey puddin

It would be interesting to see a new version of the 124 for sure ! i just wonder if it would even resemble
our cars at all .
About the alfas being expensive i stopped at a dealership in Pasadena a few years back to check out the
spider very pricey about 90k . From my understanding the Mito is a affordable car somewhat sporty
as well .

[131]

well Alfa has a richer racing history than Fiat.

Internationally, derivatives of the Lampredi twincam is the most successful race engine in history. Using this engine, Fiat and Lancia have won more World Rally Championships than any other marque. People think more of Alfa than Fiat because it's aimed at the higher end of the market, and priced accordingly.

[baltobernie]

Internationally, derivatives of the Lampredi twincam is the most successful race engine in history ....

I dunno about that. Certainly groundbreaking, innovative and all that, but the Ford Kent has won a lot of races.

[MNspiderman]

Unfortunately, fiats engineering is a few steps behind Alfa Romeo. Fiat is in a class all by itself in my opinion, there wasn't many comparable cars for fiat to compete against. In public. Im not talking about race tracks.

[Daniel]

but the Ford Kent has won a lot of races.

If i remember correctly didn't Ford Escorts and Fiats go head to head for a while in the rally world ? Also
brought Cosworth into the picture at some point .

[baltobernie]

The 4-cylinder Ford has powered everything from Formula Ford, Formula 3, Formula 2, etc. to road-going Lotus' and other British cars. The F1 Cosworth was derived from two 4-cyl. heads. I don't know the engine specifics of the Escort rally program.

[Daniel]

Some facts i found on the net

Early History
Group 4 Lancia Stratos HF.

The World Rally Championship was formed from well-known international rallies, nine of which were previously part of the International Championship for Manufacturers (IMC), which was contested from 1970 to 1972. The 1973 World Rally Championship season was the inaugural season of the WRC and began with the 42ème Rallye Automobile de Monte-Carlo on January 19.

Alpine-Renault won the first manufacturer's world championship with its Alpine A110, after which Lancia took the title three years in a row with the Ferrari V6-powered Lancia Stratos, the first car designed and manufactured specifically for rallying. The first drivers' world championship was not awarded until 1979, although 1977 and 1978 seasons included an FIA Cup for Drivers, won by Italy's Sandro Munari and Finland's Markku Alén respectively. Sweden's Björn Waldegård became the first official world champion, edging out Finland's Hannu Mikkola by one point. Fiat took the manufacters' title with the Fiat 131 Abarth in 1977, 1978 and 1980, Ford with its Escort RS1800 in 1979 and Talbot with its Sunbeam Lotus in 1981. Waldegård was followed by German Walter Röhrl and Finn Ari Vatanen as drivers' world champions.
Group B era
Main article: Group B
Group B Audi Quattro S1.

The 1980s saw the rear-wheel-drive Group 2 and the more popular Group 4 cars be replaced by more powerful four-wheel-drive Group B cars. FISA legalized all-wheel-drive in 1979, but most manufacturers believed it was too complex to be successful. However, after Audi started entering Mikkola and the new four-wheel-drive Quattro in rallies for testing purposes with immediate success, other manufacturers started their all-wheel-drive projects. Group B regulations were introduced in the 1982 season, and with only a few restrictions allowed almost unlimited power. Audi took the constructors' title in 1982 and 1984 and drivers' title in 1983 (Mikkola) and 1984 (Stig Blomqvist). Audi's French female driver Michèle Mouton came close to winning the title in 1982, but had to settle for second place after Opel rival Röhrl. 1985 title seemed set to go to Vatanen and his Peugeot 205 T16 but a bad accident at the Rally Argentina left him to watch compatriot and team-mate Timo Salonen take the title instead. Italian Attilio Bettega had even a more severe crash with his Lancia 037 at the Tour de Corse and died instantly.
Group B Peugeot 205 Turbo 16.

The 1986 season started with impressive performances by Finns Henri Toivonen and Alén in Lancia's new turbo- and supercharged Delta S4, which could reportedly accelerate from 0-60 mph (96 km/h) in 2.3 seconds, on a gravel road.[2] However, the season soon took a dramatic turn. At the Rally Portugal, three spectators were killed and over 30 injured after Joaquim Santos lost control of his Ford RS200. At the Tour de Corse, championship favourite Toivonen and his co-driver Sergio Cresto died in a fireball accident after plunging down a cliff. Only hours after the crash, Jean-Marie Balestre and the FISA decided to freeze the development of the Group B cars and ban them from competing in 1987. More controversy followed when Peugeot's Juha Kankkunen won the title after FIA annulled the results of the San Remo Rally, taking the title from fellow Finn Alén.
Group A era
Group A Toyota Celica GT-Four.

As the planned Group S was also cancelled, Group A regulations became the standard in the WRC until 1997. A separate Group A championship had been organized as part of the WRC already in 1986, with Sweden's Kenneth Eriksson taking the title with a Volkswagen Golf GTI 16V.[3] Lancia was quickest in adapting to the new regulations and controlled the world rally scene with Lancia Delta Integrale, winning the constructors' title six years in a row from 1987 to 1992. Kankkunen and Miki Biasion both took two drivers' titles with the Integrale.

The 1990s then saw the Japanese manufacturers, Toyota, Subaru and Mitsubishi, become title favourites. Spain's Carlos Sainz driving for Toyota Team Europe took the 1990 and 1992 titles with a Toyota Celica GT-Four. Kankkunen moved to Toyota for the 1993 season and won his record fourth title, with Toyota taking its first manufacturers' crown. Frenchman Didier Auriol brought the team further success in 1994, and soon Subaru and Mitsubishi continued the success of the Japanese constructors. Subaru's Scotsman Colin McRae won the drivers' world championship in 1995 and Subaru took the manufacturers' title three years in a row. Finland's Tommi Mäkinen driving a Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution won the drivers' championship four times in a row, from 1996 to 1999. Mitsubishi also won the manufacturers' title in 1998.
World Rally Car era
Peugeot 307 WRC and Ford Focus WRC on a road section during the 2008 Monte Carlo Rally.

For the 1997 season, the World Rally Car regulations were introduced as an intended replacement for Group A (only successive works Mitsubishis still conforming to the latter formula; until they, too, homologated a Lancer Evolution WRC from the 2001 San Remo Rally). After the success of Mäkinen and the Japanese manufacturers, France's Peugeot made a very successful return to the World Rally Championship. Finn Marcus Grönholm took the drivers' title in his first full year in the series and Peugeot won the manufacturers' crown. England's Richard Burns won the 2001 title with a Subaru Impreza WRC, but Grönholm and Peugeot took back both titles in the 2002 season. 2003 saw Norway's Petter Solberg become drivers' champion for Subaru and Citroën continue the success of the French manufacturers. Citroën's Sébastien Loeb went on to control the following seasons with his Citroën Xsara WRC. Citroën took the constructors' title three times in a row and Loeb surpassed Mäkinen's record of four drivers' titles earning his fifth with the 2008 season win.[4] After many titleless years at the top with their Ford Focus WRC, Ford took the 2006 and 2007 manufacturers' titles with drivers Marcus Grönholm and Mikko Hirvonen.
Structure
Škoda preparing their cars a day before the shakedown.

Each season normally consists of 13 rallies driven on surfaces ranging from gravel and tarmac to snow and ice. Points from these events are calculated towards the drivers' and manufacturers' world championships. The driver's championship and manufacturer's championship are separate championships, but based on the same point system. This means, for example, that Petter Solberg driving for Subaru can win the driver's championship but Citroën can win the manufacturer's championship, which is what happened in 2003, and again in 2006 and 2007 when Sébastien Loeb took his third and fourth WRC titles but Ford won the manufacturer's championship. In the current points system, points are awarded at the end of each rally to the top ten WRC (overall), junior, production car and super 2000 drivers that qualify as follows: 1st: 25 points, 2nd: 18 points, 3rd: 15 points, 4th: 12 points, 5th: 10 points, 6th: 8 points, 7th: 6 points, 8th: 4 points, 9th: 2 points , 10th: 1 point. Despite how many drivers are in one team, constructors can only nominate two drivers to score points for the team as well as scoring for themselves. As only nominated drivers are counted while awarding points, even competitors placed further down than tenth overall (if preceded by privateer drivers) can score them.
A stadium-based super special stage in Argentina.

In the current era, each rally usually consists of 15-35 special stages of distances ranging from under 2 km (1.24 mi) (super specials) to over 50 kilometers (31 mi). These competitive stages driven on closed roads are linked by non-competitive road sections which are on open roads on which all road laws of that country must be adhered to. On average a day consists of a total of 400 kilometers (249 mi) of driving.[5] A WRC event begins with reconnaissance (recce) on Tuesday and Wednesday, allowing crews to drive through the stages and create or update their pacenotes. On Thursday, teams can run through the shakedown stage to practice and test their set-ups. The competition begins on Friday and ends on Sunday. Cars start the stages at one or two minute intervals. Each day, or leg, has a few designated service parks between the stages, where the teams can – within strict time limits – perform maintenance and repairs on their cars. The service park also allows spectators and the media to get close to the teams and their cars and drivers. Between the days, after a 45-minute end of day service, cars are locked away in the guarded parc fermé.[5]
Cars
Main articles: Group B, Group A, and World Rally Car
Andy Priaulx driving a Ford Focus WRC at the 2007 Race of Champions.

The production-based 2.0 L turbocharged four-wheel drive cars are built to World Rally Car regulations racing across tarmac, gravel and snow. The power output has been limited to around 300 bhp (225 kW). Current cars in the championship include the Citroën C4 and Ford Focus RS. Citroën, Peugeot, Škoda and Mitsubishi pulled out of the championship for 2006 and those cars, although in use by privateers, are not in further development. Citroën returned to WRC in 2007 using the C4. The Suzuki World Rally Team joined the 2008 championship for the first time with their SX4 but they have pulled out of the 2009 championship together with Subaru because of the economic downturn currently affecting the automotive industry.

The WRC was formerly held for Group A and Group B rallycars. However, due to the increasing power, lack of reliability and the fatal accidents on the 1986 season, Group B was permanently banned. Later, in 1997, the Group A cars evolved into the WRC car spec, to ease the development of new cars and bring new makes to the competition.

Cars in the Production car World Rally Championship are limited to production-based cars homologated under Group N rules. Cars in the Super 2000 World Rally Championship are homologated under Super 2000 rules. Most cars in the Junior World Rally Championship are homologated under Super 1600 rules, but Group N and selected Group A cars can also contest the series.
Teams and drivers

See 2010 WRC season for a list of the teams and drivers.

Ford's Marcus Grönholm at the Bunnings Jumps of the 2006 Rally Australia.
Marcus Grönholm at the 2001 Rally Finland.

20 different manufacturers have won a World Rally Championship event,[6] and a further ten have finished on the podium.[7]

Suzuki and Subaru pulled out of the WRC at the end of the 2008 championship, both citing the economic downturn currently affecting the automotive industry for their withdrawal.

A typical WRC team will consist of about 40 people on the events, with a further 60-100 at the team base.[8]

Manufacturers and manufacturer-backed teams usually have two or three drivers participating in each rally and eligible to score points. The total number of crews (driver and his co-driver) in the rallies varied from 47 (Monte Carlo and Mexico) to 108 (Great Britain) during the 2007 season.[9]
Rallies

See 2010 WRC season for a list of rallies.
Coverage
TV
A cameraman at a hairpin turn at the 2007 Rallye Deutschland.

ISC TV produce daily updates of each event after the day's stages have finished and the TV coverage has been processed. These daily highlight programs are around 30 minutes in duration and cover in depth the day's stages, with in-car footage as well as driver interviews. Before the rally there is also a Rally Preview that normally incorporates special driver, technical and team features as well as providing an overview of the upcoming rally's route. There is also a review program, which lasts approximately an hour, that summarises the rally and the big events that took place during the duration; the stages are not in such detail as the daily updates as it is a review program.
The service park area during the 2006 Rally Finland.

This is then shown in 186 different countries in multiple languages, each day of the event. The make up and format for the telecast can change from country to country depending on the local broadcaster but it all uses ISC TV feeds. ISC TV also provides coverage of all of the events in the Junior World Rally Championship and the Production World Rally Championship in a 26-minute highlights package.

Also produced after each event is the lifestyle entertainment programme called WRC All Access, focused on a behind the scenes experience of WRC life, both on and off the road. These programmes focus on all elements of each country visited including culture, food, people, attractions as well as the WRC event itself. Rally World, a weekly rally programme reviews events from all around the planet, including the WRC, the PWRC, the JWRC as well as Asia Pacific Rally Championship, the Australian Rally Championship and the Middle East Rally Championship among others.

In the United Kingdom, coverage of the three-day event is shown on Dave on Sundays after the event is completed. Dave also shows different programmes on rallying – for example about WRC cars or crashes – before showing coverage of the event.