Electric and Hydrogen cars

[mbouse]

Nick... chicken or the egg? pick one... GM has chosen the chicken, the Volt. I am complaining that the egg has yet to be invented.

we're gonna create demand, then the supply of electricity? and until the supply reaches the demand... what? more hydrocarbons released to the atmosphere in the form of burnt petroleum, burnt coal and a new huge pile of unable to be disposed of nuclear waste????

great idea, the electric car... but without clean electricity its no better than a new gasoline powered vehicle of similar size.. and i propose that it is actually not as good.

i am all for green energy using vehicles.... but, the supply must be there before we ramp up the demand and force NON-PARTICIANTS to pay for the priviledged few. and, don't tell me that couldn't happen. what if i owned no personal transportation device, and walked or rode a bike everywhere i went. I own the most efficient refridgerator money can buy. will my electric bill be changed when I-94 is loaded with Volts skipping down the road? YOU BET it will... because the electric company won't be prepared for the increased demand, and will put a premium price on their product REGARDLESS of use.

my shop is very encouraged by one of its new customers, wind mills. but our parts are part of an assembly that is shipped to the nevada desert... no open stretches here for wind generated power of any significance.

[radiopilot]

Mike... I understand what you're saying but that's under the impression all electric power must come from the 'grid of dispair', electricity could be obtained to charge the car's battery in the form of your own solar collectors on the roof or your house, or the roof of the office you work at (great incentive for your employees), why not put the vast stretches of desert own by the US gov't or States to good use to supply this extra power you indicate, why would anyone's electric bill change because of it, the only reason your energy costs have soared is the ridiculous prices for a barrel of oil, this time that price is not from oil demand, it's now based on Wall Street Market conditions... have a conflict in that country oil rises, have an earthquake in another country oil rises, spill a gallon of gas at the fuel station oil goes up... I mean aren't we supposedly in a oil crisis (that is what the government/oil companies told us back some years ago and in the 1970's, 1980's, 1990's, and now 2000's)... it's all a gimmick to make you and I pay more and squeeze every penny out of us... where is the oil based technologies the oil companies have us believe they are making... now they are trying to convince you they are spending billions to make fuel from algae... another gimmick in the mean time they are collecting huge sums of money on inflated oil prices and collecting huge bonuses on the backs of the people struggling in this economy.

Maybe I see things differently... for now the best thing we could do is start driving vehicles whether electric powered, air powered, water powered, etc. and wean us off this oil mess we've gotten tricked into using... even steam powered vehicles are better than oil based fuels in my opinion!

Nick

PS... everytime I see Jay Leno bring out his steam powered cars, it's a great sight to see!

[mdrburchette]

I see both points you fellas are trying to make. Mike, my concerns mirrors yours about electricity prices going up and demand being greater than supply. I also have a problem with a car that can't get more than 40 miles out of a charge, then goes to using an alternative source. What utter nonsense from GM, especially when they already built a decent electric car with a range well over 100 miles (http://www.ev1.org/), then ditched it in favor of big oil politics....which leads right into what Nick is talking about. I guess I'll just thread the needle and go with a Fiat 500 that gets 45 mpg and be done with it until a better alternative becomes available.

[mbouse]

RIGHT, Denise! how would i ever be able to get to FFO in Asheville NC this year (july 8-11) from my home if i can only travel 40 miles per day? 683 miles means that it would take me 17 DAYS to get there. then, another 17 to get back... i haven't taken 35 days off at any time from any job in my life.

Who's paying that hotel bill ??? a great boon to the tourist industry an electric car is NOT.

I have no trouble with the new Fiat 500 and its +40 mpg. That is a very reasonable first step... not the Volt.

i was astounded at the GM display at the Detroit Auto show. Government Motors had more of the same stuff than EVERYONE else combined.... massive 4x4, Quad seating, full bed trucks... that amazingly get the exact same pi$$ poor gas mileage that they did 10-15 years ago.

if you gotta have those big toys, fine... but they'all should be paying a penalty for that luxury. i certainly can't afford under 20 mpg average, i certainly don't need 4-6,000# transportation giants for one occupant. yet, that is the standard, around here anyway. and... that was the biggest part of GM's display this year. I actually thought i was at a truck convention for a while.

let's get america pumped up on the new 500 and its direct competition while the engineers figure out how to pump more electricity out with less carbon footprint before we jump into unproven electric car technology.

yet GM wants to shove that Volt down our throats.

[pope]

Mike the big cars do pay a gas guzzler tax and by buying more gas, pay more in federal and state gas taxes. They should not be penalized more. The Volt can run on a gas generator after 40 miles, so there is no hotel room to buy. It just keeps driving till you need more gas.

Its funny that this post came up because Monday night on TopGear, that had the Tesla and a Hydrogen powered car. It is episode #221 and is available from iTunes. I think The Hydrogen Fuelcell is going to be the next mass fuel source. The electric vehicle is an inbetween step till it gets up and going.
Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe. Now, at some point in time, electric car product may surpass the fuelcell, but is no where ready yet as you will see.

[mbouse]

so, does removing hydrogen from the atmosphere increase or decrease global warming? and, what do we do with all the extra water? carry around empty Ice Mountain bottles? will we run out of oxygen in pursuit of energy by turning it into water? ala Total Recall

my point being... sunlight is the earth's ONLY completely free, totally renewable resource. hydrogen maybe the #1 most prolific element in our atmosphere, but it has a limit to its potential supply..as does oxygen and literally everything else.

the only completely free totally renewable resource isn't the best alternative? hmm...

[engineerted]

Let’s get back to basics. Water = H2O add electricity it splits the H2 from the O and presto we now have hydrogen for the fuel cell. Now store the Hydrogen and run it thru the fuel cell, the Hydrogen combines with the oxygen releasing electrons creating electricity. Hydrogen is a perfect fuel, easily converted back a forth. The real key to our future is solar, wind and hydro power these are necessary to create the electricity to transform water in to Hydrogen and oxygen, but it is going to take another 50 -100 years before we get there.

Mike, as for all those big trucks, that is what the consumer wants and will pave(pay) the way to the future of smaller cars and yes; electric cars when oil prices rise again. The Volt is the first step in our politically driven news media and will live or die depending on who is in power. I am sick a tired of the media villianizing people, banks and industries for being successful, this is America and I will spend my hard earned money on things that appeal to me. (Rant over now )

Ted

You got love winter time, gives us time to bitch while we wait for those summer driving days. God help us!!

[mbouse]

Biggest by far display at the Government Motors section this year in Detroit... the only GM display with a talking head ... was the VOLT display.

i agree that politics feeds our news media, and the media falls all over the current administration (that debate is for a different thread)... but, this is a current fact with GM, like it or not. From the lips of GM's leadership and the Prez of the USA.... sell the heck out of the VOLT !!

40 miles per charge gets me from my drive way to about one block from my bosses door step. Heaven forbid if i must stop somewhere along the way, cuz the slowing down and speeding up wastes inertia, which will waste engergy. How long does it take to charge one o these things.... cuz here in KOW KUNTRY, no one has them fancy black grids on their barn roofs. I guess i could park at the edge of town and walk the other five miles home each night, git my Ranger and the car dolly and tow it the rest of the way home. my point remains we are not ready to impliment these vehicles without developing the infrastructure. and, i am betting i'll be worm fodder for ten years before this area sees a hydro station.

we've gotten the cart in front of the electrically charged horse again.

"great incentive for your employees " you never met my boss, 'eh? in his world, we owe him. not the other way around. and in this economy, who's needing to provide those kind of incentives? no one around here. I'd end up paying HIM for the privilege of plugging my car into his outlet...not the least surprised that he would not put a meter on the line. No way he'd pass that opportunity up.

[pope]

LOL, Mike...you have to catch up.

There is a gas generator in the Volt that will generate electricity for the batteries after the 40 miles. There is no plugging in till you want to. Plugging in is an option not a requirement, though a preferred option. You get hundreds of miles out of a tank of gas.

[narfire]

At the olympic venues around Vancouver and Whistler, there are a number of buses being used powered by hydrogen fuel cells.Saw a note on tonights news, a few have broken down and are being repaired.
I'll have to ask the brother in law and see if he's driving one, see what he thinks. Way more expensive,capital cost, than the standard diesels or electric trollys in the city.

Ever read the book from Dan Brown I think it was, called "Saucer" some archaeologists found a spaceship that was powered by water. Fill up at the garden tap and good to go.
I think, not sure though, that most hydrogen being produced today is extracted from carbon fuel burning byproducts. If a cheap source (hydro) of electricity is available then water is used.

[mbouse]

LOL, Mike...you have to catch up.

There is a gas generator in the Volt that will generate electricity for the batteries after the 40 miles. There is no plugging in till you want to. Plugging in is an option not a requirement, though a preferred option. You get hundreds of miles out of a tank of gas.

pope... I am caught up. my point is that i cannot here in KOW KUNTRY plug the dang thing in! no supermarket is ready willing or able to accomodate, no office or shop parking lot will/could allow this feature, leaving only my house.

Plus, to further detail my point... the electricity consumed if i were to purchase this vehicle is generated SOLELY by fossil fuels, nuclear energy or coal. same as yours! the car does NOT reduce the carbon footprint one toe, not even your little toe that wee-wee-wee all the way home.

prepare the infrastructure FIRST before you increase the demand of electricity. figure out how to economically generate hydrocarbon and nuclear free electicity in Michigan before you release all those little electron consuming buggies onto I-94.

figure out how to safely bring the electrical grid in this country up to the standards it will need for the next hundred years. Anyone remember the big one in 2003? boy, i sure do.

[Gunsmith]

No good advances will be made(or released) in energy until the businesses and our government can make big money on it and that is the bottom line. Solar panels have been out for decades and have improved every year since they came out and mine work well even in over cast. But they could be allot better. Then there is the whole storage of energy thing(Batteries). You can bet if we all bought amazing solar panels that could run our house and charge our cars without having an electric bill to pay tax on they would be outlawed or have a special tax and or permit in order for us to have them. Take were I live for instance, West Palm Beach, Florida, look at it on the map. The Gulf stream which is basically an ocean river that travels up the East coast of the US actually touches our shore. We also have several Power plants right on the coast that have the electrical infrastructure to power the state and even other States. So hydroelectric generators could easily be placed under water and connected to the existing grid a short distance away and we would have sustainable power with no harmful byproduct. The technology already exists and it would be hard for terrorists to sabotage a power generator 100 feet below the waters surface. There would also be no big mushroom shaped cloud if it was attacked. So where is the down side? Additionally the same technology could be used for a tidal hydro electric generator at any coastal area. Add this to the hydro electric dams, wind farms and solar panels and you have a pretty solid grid over just about the whole country. So why don't we do this? Answer that question and you will also know why we don't have cars that get a 100 miles to the gallon of gas or 500 miles to a full charge of electricity.

Man did I say enough on my soap box or what?