Suspension/Brakes Build... Adjustable, low, raceeeee
Suspension/Brakes Build... Adjustable, low, raceeeee
So last year I took the time to tidy up the interior/exterior of my Spider. This year after a few commutes with the car I realized the front end just wasn't tight enough for me. It felt loose and I know this wasn't the way the car is supposed to feel. I poked around under there and decided it was time to freshen things up. I figured while I was there why not upgrade as much suspension and brake stuff as I can.
I ordered up every bushing, ball joint, tie rod and steering component imaginable. for front and rear. The rear had just had a refresher and therefore most of those bushings stay.
I want the car borderline too stiff for road based suspension. I don't drive the car daily, and when I do drive it, I prefer it be more on the aggressive side. Having had some experience in setting up road race car suspensions I decided to get down to math.
Our dual a-arm front suspension is fairly easy to calculate and create (theoretically) suspension for, its the dampening that I am worrying about. Here are some numbers I put together for my spring rates. Yes I know this is aggressive, worst case I order some softer springs.... no I take that back worse case I break something.
Corner Weights:
FD 570
FP 550
RD 560
RP 540
Total: 2220
It is important to note that these weights are estimates, and real corner weighting will be whatever I decide once adjustable suspension is affixed to the car. These numbers are just for rough calculation. The car has no bumpers, 2.5in lightweight exhaust/header. No rear seats, no stereo, no insulation.
Unsprung Weight:
Rims 14" BBS 11lb
Tire Azenis rt-615 19lb
Big Vented Rotors 8lb
Brake Caliper 7lb
Knuckle and Hardware 8lb
Control Arms 8
Total: 61lb
This puts me at a sprung weight of 509lbs, and springs which are 375lb, but end up with our suspensions motion ratio of 1.46:1 to be 240lb coil rate.
The numbers end up with a wheel frequency of about 105 cpm. This is without my wife and I in the car. This is about the same wheel frequency of a S2000, or a Miata with upgraded suspension.
I stole this idea from Halg, but decided to go a different route due to valving concerns. He used the GM package likely for the lower spring rate, and more stock shock stroke. I decided on using the QA1 Mustang kit:
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetai ... toview=sku
I felt the dampening was going to be a bigger concern to me than the spring rate, as springs are cheap to buy for coilover suspension. Both use upper body mounts, and both use rod style tops. The Mustang system costs $50 more has a higher spring rate and is adjustable in the way of tied comp/rebound. I knew that out back I was likely going to go with a different brand rear shock so I wanted to be able to match the valving based on the provided dyno sheets for both shocks.
Now the only concern being the stroke of the mustang kit. It is about an inch less than stock. I find this almost good because the car will be lowered more than 1 inch below stock, so I look at the travel as being potential more useful travel.
So that's the front... how about the rear?
I happened to have a set of bilstein sport shocks from a BMW e30 which btw are a direct boltup to our fiats. I do not yet have a dyno chart for this shock, but will be able to get one and match valving fairly close to the qa1 setup up front. Spring rate in the rear was calculated in the same method, but with a different motion ratio.. 1:1 to be exact. A sprung weight of much higher as that axle has to bounce around. Here is where the numbers landed
Sprung Weight of 410lbs
Effective coil rate of 150lbs
Gives me a Wheel frequency of 110cpm
Once again these calculations will change in a the direction of more compliant with 2 people in the car, and a full tank of gas, and maybe that roll bar I keep wanting I went with a higher rate in the rear to induce more oversteer, and make sure I had a good frequency differentiation between front and rear. No one likes resonance in a system
So how will this car stop?
Once again Halg seems to have pioneered this system. A friend had some 1999 Civic Si brake calipers sitting around which I was going to use, until I saw them in person. They were rusted, but would make a good core. So I picked up an entire front brake system rotors, pads and calipers for $150 from Autozone. The quality of the rotor, and pads is questionable, but I figured I could upgrade those to aluminum top hat designed rotors in the future, after the system has been proven.
I designed up a caliper adapter which if Halg doesn't produce I will. I will likely also sell a rotor with a top had pre drilled for 4X98 with hubcentric ring adapter.
Why not just go Whoa?
It is my belief that a braking system is only what it can transfer in the way of heat. The clamping force of the civic Si piston I felt was not only adequate, a slight improvement over stock, but within the master cylinders reach. The big improvement I feel is the move to 260mm vented rotors, and pin/bushing style caliper design.
Building a Wilwood based system would have left me in the unvented territory, and for a 1200lb sports racer I love non vented rotors, and have great luck with setups like that, but for commuter/racer which has to carry my sorry self around, I chose the heavier, larger, vented rotor from the Honda. I also like the availability of pads/rotors at a moments notice.... err a moment and the machining of a 4X98 pattern
In the rear I went with stock brakes. I decided this was a good move for now, maybe later I will feel the need. Ohh before I forget and get flamed, yes stainless lines all around
Current state?
All the suspension front and rear has been removed, and is awaiting my lazy self to either blast or powder coat. I will take pictures and update everyone as the project goes forward.
I also want to note that, I don't have all the answers, and this is a project. If my calculations are wrong, then I make note, and try again. When its completed I might come back with a completely different spring rate, and find my brake bias is wrong and requires some sort of adjustment (which btw will likely be handled by some sort of adjustment nob mounted in the interior attached to the stock bias unit, once I figure out how that thing works). This is ok with me, and I understand that I might have been able to do more calculations and do it perfectly the first time. I needed to take action, instead of talking to myself about what I might do for months on end only to find winter arrive.
So this is the path, and I'm not afraid to take a detour. Comments and questions welcome.. duh its a forum
Josh
p.s. Pics to come tonight...
I ordered up every bushing, ball joint, tie rod and steering component imaginable. for front and rear. The rear had just had a refresher and therefore most of those bushings stay.
I want the car borderline too stiff for road based suspension. I don't drive the car daily, and when I do drive it, I prefer it be more on the aggressive side. Having had some experience in setting up road race car suspensions I decided to get down to math.
Our dual a-arm front suspension is fairly easy to calculate and create (theoretically) suspension for, its the dampening that I am worrying about. Here are some numbers I put together for my spring rates. Yes I know this is aggressive, worst case I order some softer springs.... no I take that back worse case I break something.
Corner Weights:
FD 570
FP 550
RD 560
RP 540
Total: 2220
It is important to note that these weights are estimates, and real corner weighting will be whatever I decide once adjustable suspension is affixed to the car. These numbers are just for rough calculation. The car has no bumpers, 2.5in lightweight exhaust/header. No rear seats, no stereo, no insulation.
Unsprung Weight:
Rims 14" BBS 11lb
Tire Azenis rt-615 19lb
Big Vented Rotors 8lb
Brake Caliper 7lb
Knuckle and Hardware 8lb
Control Arms 8
Total: 61lb
This puts me at a sprung weight of 509lbs, and springs which are 375lb, but end up with our suspensions motion ratio of 1.46:1 to be 240lb coil rate.
The numbers end up with a wheel frequency of about 105 cpm. This is without my wife and I in the car. This is about the same wheel frequency of a S2000, or a Miata with upgraded suspension.
I stole this idea from Halg, but decided to go a different route due to valving concerns. He used the GM package likely for the lower spring rate, and more stock shock stroke. I decided on using the QA1 Mustang kit:
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetai ... toview=sku
I felt the dampening was going to be a bigger concern to me than the spring rate, as springs are cheap to buy for coilover suspension. Both use upper body mounts, and both use rod style tops. The Mustang system costs $50 more has a higher spring rate and is adjustable in the way of tied comp/rebound. I knew that out back I was likely going to go with a different brand rear shock so I wanted to be able to match the valving based on the provided dyno sheets for both shocks.
Now the only concern being the stroke of the mustang kit. It is about an inch less than stock. I find this almost good because the car will be lowered more than 1 inch below stock, so I look at the travel as being potential more useful travel.
So that's the front... how about the rear?
I happened to have a set of bilstein sport shocks from a BMW e30 which btw are a direct boltup to our fiats. I do not yet have a dyno chart for this shock, but will be able to get one and match valving fairly close to the qa1 setup up front. Spring rate in the rear was calculated in the same method, but with a different motion ratio.. 1:1 to be exact. A sprung weight of much higher as that axle has to bounce around. Here is where the numbers landed
Sprung Weight of 410lbs
Effective coil rate of 150lbs
Gives me a Wheel frequency of 110cpm
Once again these calculations will change in a the direction of more compliant with 2 people in the car, and a full tank of gas, and maybe that roll bar I keep wanting I went with a higher rate in the rear to induce more oversteer, and make sure I had a good frequency differentiation between front and rear. No one likes resonance in a system
So how will this car stop?
Once again Halg seems to have pioneered this system. A friend had some 1999 Civic Si brake calipers sitting around which I was going to use, until I saw them in person. They were rusted, but would make a good core. So I picked up an entire front brake system rotors, pads and calipers for $150 from Autozone. The quality of the rotor, and pads is questionable, but I figured I could upgrade those to aluminum top hat designed rotors in the future, after the system has been proven.
I designed up a caliper adapter which if Halg doesn't produce I will. I will likely also sell a rotor with a top had pre drilled for 4X98 with hubcentric ring adapter.
Why not just go Whoa?
It is my belief that a braking system is only what it can transfer in the way of heat. The clamping force of the civic Si piston I felt was not only adequate, a slight improvement over stock, but within the master cylinders reach. The big improvement I feel is the move to 260mm vented rotors, and pin/bushing style caliper design.
Building a Wilwood based system would have left me in the unvented territory, and for a 1200lb sports racer I love non vented rotors, and have great luck with setups like that, but for commuter/racer which has to carry my sorry self around, I chose the heavier, larger, vented rotor from the Honda. I also like the availability of pads/rotors at a moments notice.... err a moment and the machining of a 4X98 pattern
In the rear I went with stock brakes. I decided this was a good move for now, maybe later I will feel the need. Ohh before I forget and get flamed, yes stainless lines all around
Current state?
All the suspension front and rear has been removed, and is awaiting my lazy self to either blast or powder coat. I will take pictures and update everyone as the project goes forward.
I also want to note that, I don't have all the answers, and this is a project. If my calculations are wrong, then I make note, and try again. When its completed I might come back with a completely different spring rate, and find my brake bias is wrong and requires some sort of adjustment (which btw will likely be handled by some sort of adjustment nob mounted in the interior attached to the stock bias unit, once I figure out how that thing works). This is ok with me, and I understand that I might have been able to do more calculations and do it perfectly the first time. I needed to take action, instead of talking to myself about what I might do for months on end only to find winter arrive.
So this is the path, and I'm not afraid to take a detour. Comments and questions welcome.. duh its a forum
Josh
p.s. Pics to come tonight...
Last edited by joshuagore on Sat Jun 06, 2009 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Suspension/Brakes Build... Adjustable, low, raceeeee
Photoshop mockup of wheels/tires/lowering:
note: Abarth center cap
Wheels alone:
note: Abarth center cap
Wheels alone:
Re: Suspension/Brakes Build... Adjustable, low, raceeeee
Josh
You have taken the next step with the suspension. I didn't want to spend a fortune on tunable shocks(not necessary for my driving) since most of my effort was going into the supercharged engine. I have put 1000 miles on my design rear suspension with no problems. I did have to cut 1 full coil off the front springs to get the amount of adjustment I wanted. the GM springs are 375lb/in. My brake system also has 1000 miles in my silver v8 powered spider. I am probably going to add drilled rotors to the stock rear to get a little improvement there, since I did make quite an improvement in the front. Since I do this as a hobby I don't have the desire or the liability insurance to make any of my parts for anyone else. I am willing to share any information or drawings though. Carry on the good work.
Hal
You have taken the next step with the suspension. I didn't want to spend a fortune on tunable shocks(not necessary for my driving) since most of my effort was going into the supercharged engine. I have put 1000 miles on my design rear suspension with no problems. I did have to cut 1 full coil off the front springs to get the amount of adjustment I wanted. the GM springs are 375lb/in. My brake system also has 1000 miles in my silver v8 powered spider. I am probably going to add drilled rotors to the stock rear to get a little improvement there, since I did make quite an improvement in the front. Since I do this as a hobby I don't have the desire or the liability insurance to make any of my parts for anyone else. I am willing to share any information or drawings though. Carry on the good work.
Hal
Re: Suspension/Brakes Build... Adjustable, low, raceeeee
Thanks Hal!
Your compliments are greatly appreciated. I see now I misread the GM spring weight, I thought they were 250. If you can email me your bracket I can compare with mine to see if mine is right, I will do the same and email you mine d1sinfo.josh.gore@gmail.com
I too do this as a hobby, but work as a product development engineer for my 'real' job. I do work with a small race team on weekends as a job, but I still consider that a hobby
My family owns a company where all these parts could be fabricated so it's tempting to put together a kit, but liability as you said is the real issue. We are currently marketing some aftermarket motorcycle parts which seem to be a decent success, and have done similar ventures in the past.
Josh
Your compliments are greatly appreciated. I see now I misread the GM spring weight, I thought they were 250. If you can email me your bracket I can compare with mine to see if mine is right, I will do the same and email you mine d1sinfo.josh.gore@gmail.com
I too do this as a hobby, but work as a product development engineer for my 'real' job. I do work with a small race team on weekends as a job, but I still consider that a hobby
My family owns a company where all these parts could be fabricated so it's tempting to put together a kit, but liability as you said is the real issue. We are currently marketing some aftermarket motorcycle parts which seem to be a decent success, and have done similar ventures in the past.
Josh
Re: Suspension/Brakes Build... Adjustable, low, raceeeee
Project Update:
Spent the evening blasting more parts, and prepping others. Tomorrow I will finish masking and at the very least get all my gloss black done. Next is the gloss red.
I am contemplating welding a nut over my tie rods, is this crazy?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/25344475@N ... 566054905/
Spent the evening blasting more parts, and prepping others. Tomorrow I will finish masking and at the very least get all my gloss black done. Next is the gloss red.
I am contemplating welding a nut over my tie rods, is this crazy?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/25344475@N ... 566054905/
-
- Posts: 5754
- Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 5:49 am
- Your car is a: 1972 Fiat 124 Sport
- Location: Winston-Salem, NC
Re: Suspension/Brakes Build... Adjustable, low, raceeeee
Impressive work, Josh. What are you doing about swaybars? Are you panning to use a rear one to help with oversteer?
1972 124 Spider (Don)
1971 124 Spider (Juan)
1986 Bertone X19 (Blue)
1978 124 Spider Lemons racer
1974 X19 SCCA racer (Paul)
2012 500 Prima Edizione #19 (Mini Rossa)
Ever changing count of parts cars....It's a disease!
1971 124 Spider (Juan)
1986 Bertone X19 (Blue)
1978 124 Spider Lemons racer
1974 X19 SCCA racer (Paul)
2012 500 Prima Edizione #19 (Mini Rossa)
Ever changing count of parts cars....It's a disease!
Re: Suspension/Brakes Build... Adjustable, low, raceeeee
I am going to try the car with no sway bars. My car doesn't have a rear sway bar of any sort... did it come with one stock? The front bar may be to weak to do anything with my upgraded front end. I know it will slightly increase my spring rate in turns, but at this point its likely a drop in a bucket with the upgraded springs. Do I even want to reduce front roll anymore is a good question. I would answer that with no, if I was simply bench top racing, in the real world I may end up doing something in the rear and putting the stock front bar back on.mdrburchette wrote:Impressive work, Josh. What are you doing about swaybars? Are you panning to use a rear one to help with oversteer?
Josh
Re: Suspension/Brakes Build... Adjustable, low, raceeeee
Did not get done as much as I wanted, but here is an update.
Painted Brackets
Rear Calipers, and in the distance front Fiaonda big brake kit.
More
With Bracket
Red comes tomorrow
Painted Brackets
Rear Calipers, and in the distance front Fiaonda big brake kit.
More
With Bracket
Red comes tomorrow
-
- Posts: 5754
- Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 5:49 am
- Your car is a: 1972 Fiat 124 Sport
- Location: Winston-Salem, NC
Re: Suspension/Brakes Build... Adjustable, low, raceeeee
Love your paint booth! The car did not come with a rear swaybar. What are you planning to use the car for? Just curious.
1972 124 Spider (Don)
1971 124 Spider (Juan)
1986 Bertone X19 (Blue)
1978 124 Spider Lemons racer
1974 X19 SCCA racer (Paul)
2012 500 Prima Edizione #19 (Mini Rossa)
Ever changing count of parts cars....It's a disease!
1971 124 Spider (Juan)
1986 Bertone X19 (Blue)
1978 124 Spider Lemons racer
1974 X19 SCCA racer (Paul)
2012 500 Prima Edizione #19 (Mini Rossa)
Ever changing count of parts cars....It's a disease!
Re: Suspension/Brakes Build... Adjustable, low, raceeeee
Yes the ghetto powder coating booth was a temporary fix about a month ago. Ohh how decent temporary fixes last longer than intended. The roll around the box is on will likely turn into a downdraft setup in the near future. It will also have a better fixture setupmdrburchette wrote:Love your paint booth! The car did not come with a rear swaybar. What are you planning to use the car for? Just curious.
Josh
Re: Suspension/Brakes Build... Adjustable, low, raceeeee
Columbia Coatings is bar none the best paint I have ever used for powder coating. There Super Mirror Red is forgiving and fantastic to spray. I had been using on other projects paint from Powder By The Pound, but there 'mirror' colors did not go on nearly as well. These parts were blasted, wiped with alcohol and then left to hang.... Yes I know I should have masked the bushing holes I forgot. I wont on the lowers.
Re: Suspension/Brakes Build... Adjustable, low, raceeeee
Hey Josh, want kind of set up do you have there? How much would the equip cost? What co. did you get it from?
I thought you needed an oven to powder coat to bake it. Your doing an excellent job !
I thought you needed an oven to powder coat to bake it. Your doing an excellent job !
- engineerted
- Posts: 531
- Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:57 pm
- Your car is a: 1974 124 spider
- Location: Farmington Hills, MI
Re: Suspension/Brakes Build... Adjustable, low, raceeeee
Josh, Wow looks good. I see that you are going with the QA1 semi coil over setup on the front. Did you beef up the lower A-arms shock mountings? Just looking out for ya.
Ted
Ted
Ted
1978 124 Spider, Complete Restoration
1974 Fiat 124 F Production Race car
1978 124 Spider, Complete Restoration
1974 Fiat 124 F Production Race car
Re: Suspension/Brakes Build... Adjustable, low, raceeeee
We have a small commercial oven. I am using the harbor freight gun, no regrets so far. I don't suggest the harbor freight paintazygoustoyou wrote:Hey Josh, want kind of set up do you have there? How much would the equip cost? What co. did you get it from?
I thought you needed an oven to powder coat to bake it. Your doing an excellent job !
I will take pics of the setup in more detail when I do my next job. Hopefully tonight
Josh
Re: Suspension/Brakes Build... Adjustable, low, raceeeee
I created angle pieces and welded them behind the tab. After doing that I welded material on the inner dimension to create a thicker tab. I then went overboard on welding, stitching in several places where spot welding mounted the inner tab bracket to the coil perch. I made some mistakes simply due to my inpatients. One of those mistakes included running with no gas. Silly mistake, but sometimes after working for hours on end I guess mistakes can be made. I was concerned with cutting off my mistakes so I re welded at a higher power and a higher feed rate, but this time with gas. I was able to get great penetration, but in reality it went overboard. That being said I am very confident the arm is solid, and it will handle the load.engineerted wrote:Josh, Wow looks good. I see that you are going with the QA1 semi coil over setup on the front. Did you beef up the lower A-arms shock mountings? Just looking out for ya.
Ted
Josh
p.s. Updated Pictures