How can I improve handling?

[LEWISDR]

I've have a 1980 Spider that I bought last year. I think most of the suspension is in good shape (shocks, control arms, ball joints etc) but I am not satisfied with the handling.

It has the 13 inch factory alloy wheels and some kind of off brand tires called Phaser that look like they have been designed for wheelbarrows. (165/80)

The steering feels heavy and slow to me. What would help to improve things? 14 inch wheels? Lose the heavy tube steel bumpers?

Looking for input from people who have done these things.

Thanks
Dan
Vermont

[mbouse]

dan, all very good questions, and maybe some misinformation?

unless you have spent the time, or can document that the previous owner recently changed the bushings, ball joints, tie rod ends etc... i would not presume that those components are in fine shape. Could be that some need attention. also, is the front end anti-sway bar still in place?

adding a rear sway bar might also be in order.

yeah, getting some performance tires would make a change to the front end handling...quite a bit.

additionally, filling the steering box with the proper gear oil will be a huge help.

that front bumper weighs in at over 50 pounds, accidently "losing" it might put a smile on your face for more than one reason.

[kmead]

Italian cars of this type were known for compliant suspensions that could absorb bumps in the road with little or no untoward effect beyond leaning a great deal. There isn't really anything wrong with leaning, we have just been programmed to think a car that is flatter in a curve is "handling" better. They handle quite well for the time and can be improved but without a lot of work you won't be pulling a G with a 124 Spider.

The single most important handling change you can make is:

Tires

Getting good tires that are appropriate to your rims will improve the handling more than any other single change. Going up one or two inches in diameter with your rims can improve even more but to really maximize the benefits of a plus 2 upgrade you will want to do a few of the other things listed lower down. In any case a real performance tire versus the rim protector you now have will really improve the actual grip the car can deliver. It won't change the fact the car will lean quite a lot while doing it. If you can find 205/60 13 tires you can put them on the 5 1/2" wide rims, a 195/60 tire would be better as you will end up with less squishy side walls. Going to 14s will be better, a 195/60 14 tire will work well, 185/60 14 would also be fine. V rated at least regardless of what size you get.

That said, at the same time you should do an alignment preferably to maximize performance. Keep in mind a performance oriented alignment can cause notable tire wear, especially if you choose a real performance tire (ie soft tread compound).

If these first two steps don't do it for you, there are many other steps you can take.

Lowering the car modestly can help, more on a post 75 car than an early car. Whatever you do, don't lower it beyond the lower A arm being parallel with the ground (not sloped up from the front subframe towards the wheel). Lowering a car to the point that you have no suspension travel and/or bad geometry is not the path to a good handling car. At the same time putting new shocks on will also help. Personally I would stay away from the GR2s they tend to lift the car and I don't like the feel. Konis or Spax are best.

Stiffer springs can improve things but one this is a tricky to do properly and can require trying several different sets of springs to find the set up that either pushes or is loose at the right end to please you. Going with the standard performance springs from the various vendors is generally a good choice for most drivers. You will lower the car an inch or so which is about all you should.

Adding an anti roll bar or sway bar to the rear is a good choice but should also be accompanied by increasing the front anti roll bar diameter to a 1" bar. This will keep the existing balance of the car which can be important for most drivers. Most drivers are used to cars that understeer or "push" in a corner. This tends to be a fairly benign handling behavior which most people know how to react to. A car with just the rear bar and no upgrade to the front can be a little "loose" or oversteer, this can be a lot of fun but in an emergency situation can be less than ideal as you are trying to gather up the car in a bad situation...

Losing some weight can't hurt but will need you to make changes to your springs etc etc. The greatest benefit to losing your boat anchor bumpers is going to be in acceleration, given their location you will note some change in polar moment inertia but given the primarily front weight bias of the Spider it won't have much effect on your handling.

Keep in mind the farther you move from the standard car the rougher the ride will be, the greater the tendency to be bumped off line on a mid bend imperfection in the road and more regular tire replacements.

Personally I would look for some 14" rims, go with the performance springs and shocks and get some good sticky tires with a performance alignment. I don't mind the lean and don't want to really change the character of the car, it will never be a Corvette (or pick your favorite high G sports car).

Good luck with your changes. Make it what you want and enjoy it.

[So Cal Mark]

good advice, but I'll disagree on the KYB GR 2 shocks, They are not high pressure enough to lift the car and give a good ride along with decent street performance handling. The white KYBs will lift the car and are too stiff for street use.
Reading the original post, the writer lists heavy steering as the problem, not lean. You may have a steering dampner that is nearly seized. The car should steer easily, and that takes you back to basics, not completely modifying the suspension. All of the suggestions will not help if any of the joints or steering linkages are binding or not moving freely

[LEWISDR]

Thank you both for these excellent replies. They give me plenty of of information and things to look at. Knowing the way I operate, I probably won't have a good idea what is needed until the end of the summer. (It's pretty short up here in Vermont!)

The last time I drove one of these cars was my brother's 124 over 30 years ago. My memory is telling me that car steered easier than the one I have now.

I will try to report back to both of you with the results of my investiagtions even if it's a couple of months from now.

Thanks
Dan
Vermont

[kmead]

Your arms were 24 years younger and stronger with lots of modern low effort inputs.

You should try a non power brake car with four wheel disks to stop it.

Where in Vermont are you? I am from Marshfield and lived in Montpelier, Barre and Rutland at various times.

I will be back to visit family during late July and August.

Enjoy the summer, I recall that last year it was on a Tuesday...

[Kevin1]

A very good writeup from IAP on handling imrovements can be read here:

http://www.international-auto.com/fiat- ... ndling.cfm

FWIW, I have used the KYB shocks for years, and they are a very good upgrade over the stock shocks. The "lifting" due to gas pressure may be measurable if you bothered to try, but if it is, it is minimal. Personally I think it falls into the "fiat urban legend" category. Anyway, if I had big money to spend I would go Koni, but the KYB's are a big improvement and cost far less. Your choice.

[LEWISDR]

Kmead,

I live in Danville. I used to drive through Marshfield every day on my way to work at CVH in Barre.

Let me know when you are going to be up here. I'd love to show you you the car.

Thanks
Dan
684-3894

[pope]

Hey Kevin,
KYB makes two different shocks that fit the Fiat. White Gas-a-just and the GR-2. The white one is a high pressure shock that will lift the rear end of the spider over an inch. The GR-2 is a more of a dampening shock that does not raise the car at all. The GR-2 is the shock that is recommended by this forum as some of us have learned the hard way.

[Kevin1]

Hey Kevin,
KYB makes two different shocks that fit the Fiat. White Gas-a-just and the GR-2. The white one is a high pressure shock that will lift the rear end of the spider over an inch. The GR-2 is a more of a dampening shock that does not raise the car at all. The GR-2 is the shock that is recommended by this forum as some of us have learned the hard way.

Hi Pope,
I haven't tried the gas-a-just shocks, only the GR-2. If the gas-a-just shocks do lift the car, that's very good advise to avoid them.

The reason I posted was because earlier in this thread (and elsewhere on the forum) it specifically mentions the GR-2 shocks lifting the car, and that just isn't true. Seems every time someone mentions GR-2's, someone else posts that they'll jack up the car. It wouldn't be fair to Dan leaving him thinking the GR-2's would cause problems when in reality they are a very good choice for the spider. Hope my earlier post didn't cause any confusion!

[pope]

I think Karl got a little mixed up which shock raises the rear and Mark corrected it right after that. I just wanted to explain it to all the readers to set the record straight.

Not complainin' just explainin'!!!

Just to tell you guys, the white gas-a-just come compressed and are corded in that position. You install them and cut the cord, where it releases a power punch and it is very difficult to compress them on your own.

[sptcoupe]

My order of priority for improving 124 handing on an enthusiastically driven street car is:

Buy the best tire you can - not the widest or the stickiest you can fit on the car (they cause a different set of problems). Just good street performance tires (185 or 195/60 14s, or 185/60 13s with a 220 -260 or so treadwear factor). Get them too sticky and wide, and you will find yourself wandering all over the place because of tire "nibbling", or following the road surface.

Replace the springs with a good set of after market springs to lower the car and stiffen it a max of 15% or so. You can cut the stock springs, but remember, the less coils or metal you have in the spring, the tighter it gets at a given height. If it is too stiff, you will cause more problems than you solve (jounce, etc). I find that when I have cut them to get them to the height I like (about 1 1/4"), they get a bit too stiff. This step (lowering and stiffening) will reduce body roll.

Add a rear sway bar to stiffen the rear end relative to the front end, and thus reduce understeer (124s are understeerers and in my opinion this is the biggest limiting factor)

Put Konis in the rear and KYBs Gas-Adjusts in the front. I personally have always found Konis to be too stiff for the front (even on the softest setting), they seem to move the car toward more under steer (this could be my imagination) and don't have enough compliance over pot holes, bumps, etc. This is especially true with stiffer/lower srings

nylon sway bar bushing in the front (although I prefer rubber)

I have found this combination reduces understeer by tightening the rear of the car, and body roll by lowering it. I have done all the above and also added a heavier front sway bar, but while it stiffens it a bit more and reduces roll, it tends to undo what you have done to the rear of the car to reduce the real culprit, which is understeer. Some body roll is OK if the tires stick enough, but understeer is the bigger limiting factor. I have also ofund that a heavier bar in front works OK if you do not lower the car. I just don't do both.

Reduce unsprung weight - alloy wheels, etc. I know this helps in theory, but I have found that I get the least amount of "seat of the pants" improvement with this step - which is why it is last in my priority.

Handing in a pretty subjective topic, but the above is my standard formula to getting a nicely balanced street car.

Jeff