Remove crossmember without pulling the engine?

[jazzguitarboy]

Hey all,

We're going to refresh the front suspension on our LeMons car ('78 Spider), and we'd like to inspect/reinforce the crossmember at the same time.

Is it possible to remove the crossmember without removing the engine? The Fiat service manual shows a tool that attaches to the top of the engine to hold it in place, but I don't have anything like that. Can I just support the engine/transmission with a floor jack? If so, where is the best point to place the jack?

Thanks,
Ben

[So Cal Mark]

the engine can stay in place, it's easiest to hold it from the top since that leaves lots of room underneath. If you use a jack, place it under the bellhousing

[racydave]

Can you use a engine hoist to hold it from the top?

[SpiderHead]

yes

[manoa matt]

Just did that to my 78 several weeks ago, when I repaired the crossmember to frame rail mounting points. I had jack stands under the frame rails adjacent to the front jacking points, and a scissor type jack similar to the original fiat jack under the oil pan with a block of wood. The engine and jack under it made for intestering positions when cutting out and welding in new metal from the bottom of the frame rails.

I'd strongly recommend If you got the time and resources to take the engine and trans out when doing any metal cutting and welding. Once I was done I noticed everything in the engine bay had a light coat of metal dust. Spark plug wires and distributor coated with metal dust, air cleaner coated with metal dust. The alternator, starter motor, and fan motor all have powerfull magnets that will attract the metal dust. Any oil leaks, or grease will attract and hold the metal dust also. Vacume cleaners and compressed air did little to remove the dust. Many damp paper towels later and I'm still finding metal dust here and there.

You will find the lower two bolts that hold the crossmember are just "captive" bolts. What causes the failure of the bolts and frame rail is hard stopping. When you slam on the brakes the caliper grabs the rotor and the negative caster angle wants to shift more positive. That force gets translated to the upper and lower "A" arms.

The upper "A" arm has a rotating angle through the pivot bolt that passes through the shock mount tower. The lower "A" arm transfers the rotational force to the captive bolts in the frame rail. The rearward bolt wants to push up and the forward bolt wants to pull out. After many years of this the crossmember will want to pivot forward and rearward on the large upper bolts on each side. Oddly enough the upper crossmember bolts are the only ones that are fully boxed in to the frame rails, with a metal tube that spans between the inner section of the frame rails.

I've designed my own version of a frame rail fix that uses thru bolts dropped down thru the frame rail which is now fully boxed in with tube sleves for the thru bolts. Here are a few pictures of the procedure. A few steps are missing and I don't have pictures of it assembled and painted, but you get the idea.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bigtimes_fiat/3332441412/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bigtimes_fiat/3332441532/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bigtimes_fiat/3331605435/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bigtimes_fiat/3331605583/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bigtimes_fiat/3332441874/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bigtimes_fiat/3332442014/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bigtimes_fiat/3332442134/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bigtimes_fiat/3331606073/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bigtimes_fiat/3331606157/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bigtimes_fiat/3332442478/

This modification (braces) will also help controll the pivot/roll of the crossmember and help transfer the forces back to the frame rails: http://www.flickr.com/photos/bigtimes_fiat/3331592969/

[brad131a4]

Nice job Matt. I've repaired a few frames with that same problem. I used angle iron to give it a little more added strength. Then welded it to the frame rail. Removing the motor would be ideal but just as easy with it supported from the top. I used a 4x4 to build what looked like a sawhorse that fit right onto the fender notch for the hood. A comalong and chain wala.

[azygoustoyou]

Hi Matt,
I got the metal cut out for the frame fix on one side. I tried to go about it another way than having the bolt all the way through. It seems I'm having a hard time finding the bolt. So I decided to do the fix the same way you did. Did you say you used Fiat head bolts for the replacement bolt? Are they any certain length or do I have to specify a certain length and Dia.? If so, what size did you use? Also, where can I get these bolts?
Thanks

[manoa matt]

Yep, Fiat cylinder head bolts. They are the same diameter and thread pitch as the captive bolts that were originally there so you can reuse the nuts that held the crossmember up to the bottom of the frame rail. They are the right length too and plenty strong.

I've got a ton of these bolts and the thick washers, I could put together a "frame rail repair kit" for you if you like that would include the head bolts, the washers, the tubing, the upper metal plates, and some sheet metal for the bottom of the frame rail. Send me an email matt.scarton@gmail.com

[launieg]

Matt, you are beyond belief! Where do you find the time to do all this great stuff for others? Moreover,I read every one of your posts - always a font of information. Whoops, am I gushing?

[narfire]

I was wondering the same thing. Also wonder when he's gona move to BC,love to have his expertice closer. I did see a Hawaii licence plate in Summerland a couple of days ago,first time I've ever seen one in BC.

[mbouse]

i am wondering why (especially this time of year) anyone would move from Hawaii to anywhere that 'celebrates' winter sports involving snow.... and, not only move, but do it on purpose...

today is supposed to be the first day of near 80°F sunny weather here in Michigan. was barely three weeks ago and we had 4" of that white nasty stuff on the ground. my memory isn't so short that i forgot about how i felt when i saw that.

are you guys in BC even on the road yet?

Matt - - i echo the other sentiments... keep up the good work with the documentation.

[manoa matt]

Thanks guys, now I'm blushing. If I actually worked while at work then I wouldn't post as much. I just like helping out, part of my midwest upbringing I guess. The last three weekends all I've done is work on Fiats...none of them mine. I know 4 people with fiats on the island that all want me to work on their cars,(2 1978's and 2 1979's). The problem is that they see mine and say "Oh, can you make mine look like that." My wife has started to get "annoyed" that I'm working on Fiats so much. The odd thing is that she dosen't care how much time or money I spend on mine, its the time that I'm working on other peoples cars.

I'll be visiting the "mainland" at the end of next month for about 10 days. Flying into Chicago then driving to Cincinnati for a few days then back to Chicago for a few days before flying back out. I plan on visiting a few members along the way. Hawker in Chicago, Race Dave in Indy, A Mira member in Cincinnati and another guy in Cincy. Over thanksgiving I met up with a member in Atlanta. Then last year I visited Mark's shop in Upland and visited with Alvon in Ventura. I just wish I could attend some of those events and freak outs you guys go to.

By the way, if there is anybody in the greater Chicago, greater Indinapolis, greater Cincinnati, greater Lexington, or greater Louisville areas that needs parts deliverd from Hawaii or just wants to meet up let me know. I'll Be in the Cincy, Lex, and Loui areas from May 25th thru the 28th, Passing thru Indinapolis on the 28th, and in Chicago from the 28th to the 31st.

matt.scarton@gmail.com

[narfire]

Hey Mike,yeup top down started a couple of weeks ago...sort of. Then a cold front rolled through and well it got cold again.
Just thought Matt would enjoy surfing at Canada's "hotbed" of surfing just up the road from Launie in Sooke. One has to be clad in a drysuit,hoodie and boots though, and if it leaks then one can recover from hypothermia in one of our publicly funded hospitals (just don't eat the food).Also I wonder if it would be a good thing to be in the water when a transient pod of orca comes through,they're main diet is/are seals. Resident orca like salmon
This forum is the next best thing to having a crew of you lot nearby. Only a couple of fiats within a hundred mile radius here.