More Problems

[fiasco]

So after a couple of days of not finding my oil leak, I took a break and went to the driving range. When I got back home, I parked in the garage and popped the hood with the engine still running to see if I could find the source of the leak. There were a couple of things I noticed.

1. There is a clicking/tapping sound coming from the engine that wasn't there this morning.
2. The electric fan which was working perfectly a couple of days ago, now is not coming on, so the car started to get hot while running in the garage.
3. The oil that had collected around the spark plugs was boiling.

Here's a short video of what I saw/heard.



I'm starting to think that I'm just screwed and I need to take the car to Mark and pay all the money I thought I was saving by doing the work myself. Of course I'll never get the car back from Mark because I don't have any money left so I couldn't pay him anyway.

-- se

[rlux4]

Steve, this is very upsetting. Of course, I'm not telling you anything new. Now; how hot did it get? How long did it stay hot enough to boil oil? If your fan didn't come on while the engine was hot, I'd suspect low coolant level. The temp sensor in the bottom of the radiator needs to be in contact with hot liquid to activate the fan. Hot air around it won't do it. Was your temp gauge not showing high temp?
Did the clicking noise start up after the engine got overheated, or before?
Ron

[joelbert2k]

Steve,
I know it doesn't make any sense but it sounds like a car with hydraulic lifters with no oil pressure. Not sure what would sound like that on a spider though.
As for the oil bubbling is it really boiling or could it be as simple as a slightly loose spark plug? I had this happen on my first Fiat too many years ago. (new 70 Coupe). Just a thought.
Joel

[fiasco]

Ron - Not sure how long the oil was boiling. The gauge never got to the red zone, but was between 190 and red for maybe 5 minutes. The coolant level looks fine. I refilled it after taking everything apart yesterday, and purged the air out the flush T. I guess it could have air in the system, but I tried to make sure it didn't.

The clicking noise was not present this morning. The first time I heard it was when I got home this afternoon, which was also the first time the oil boiled.

Joel - I'm fairly sure the oil was boiling, and not a loose plug for two reasons. 1. Oil was bubbling around the #1 and #2 plugs, and 2. the bubbling continued when I turned the engine off.

At this point, I'm afraid to drive it. I don't want to make worse whatever is making the clicking sound. I'm imagining all kinds of possibilities. Valves or cylinders. Possibly the crank seal or the aux seal is bad, causing the oil leak, and whatever is bad is getting worse (which would account for the increasing volume of oil leaking) and the seal is deteriorating, causing some moving part to thwack against some other part.

Ug!
-- se

[ventura ace]

Steve,
Oil has to get to 400-500 degrees to boil. I don't think we're seeing oil boiling. Are you sure the liquid is oil? Could it be a coolant leak? How was the water neck sealed at the front of the cylinder head (I don't remember seeing that part being assembled)?

The noise sounds like valves with way too much clearance, as if one of the cam towers is loosening up. Can you pull a valve cover off and measure valve clearances? A set of feeler gauges is only a few bucks.

A

[fiasco]

Alvon's comment about the oil made me think a little more about what could have been causing the bubbling. Then I remembered that I had cleaned everything earlier in the day, and I bet there was still some water pooled around those plugs. Since the fan didn't come on and the temp got up over 190 and water boils at 212, I'm thinking the bubbling was caused by boiling the water and the oil was just sitting on top of the water.

But I've still got the leak, the non-functioning fan and the clicking/tapping sound. I'll buy a set of feeler gauges and check the valves.

-- se

[So Cal Mark]

it would be easier to check the tightness of the cam boxes. If the bolts are that loose to change the valve clearance that situation needs to be addressed

[Kevin1]

. . . and if the cam boxes are loose that could account for your oil leak, too.

[mbouse]

air bubbles are coming from blow by from the spark plugs.

oil is either from loose cam boxes or loose cam covers

[fiasco]

air bubbles are coming from blow by from the spark plugs.

If that were the case, wouldn't the bubbles have stopped when I turned the engine off? I think it was residual water from an earlier cleaning that was boiling off.

oil is either from loose cam boxes or loose cam covers

This may be, but if so, I still can't figure out how the oil is getting from the cam box to the cam pulley. The one thing that I know for sure is that oil is being flung from the tops of the cam pulleys, especially the driver's side, and oil is not collecting on the floor under the car. It could be getting on the belt and traveling up, but there is no doubt that the pulleys are throwing oil around.

-- se

[So Cal Mark]

since you had the t belt off, could the aux shaft be out of time? That could cause the clicking noise you hear now. Did you use an impact to tighten the cam sprockets?
As for the leak, there isn't much to leak on the front of the engine except the seals. The front crank seal is pretty tricky to install properly and that can leak alot. Can you see oil around the crank sprocket?

[Tappy]

....

This may be, but if so, I still can't figure out how the oil is getting from the cam box to the cam pulley. The one thing that I know for sure is that oil is being flung from the tops of the cam pulleys, especially the driver's side, and oil is not collecting on the floor under the car. It could be getting on the belt and traveling up, but there is no doubt that the pulleys are throwing oil around.

-- se

i have the same problem , same diagnostics , and also replaced all seals and gaskets not long ago. Theres also oil on the head , but it srips from the T-belt , the inside of the timing cover is also covered in oil I didnt solve the problem yet but i can add some symtoms if you like

My garage is going on a ramp (used to be a stable) so when i park her inside usulally the front is about 75 cm higher then the rear. I tell you this because when ideling i can find no (visual) leaks but oil is on the engine worst part on the driver side. Yesterday i parked her the other way around , after a short trip and now i did see dripping oil. seems like i have to look for a leak in the crank oil return ring the cover plate gasket or the oil pan gasket. Anoher member advised me to clean of the engine first , then put babypowder on the(front) engine and let it run , to discover the origin of the leak where the talking powder breaks loose and the oil gets visible. might be an idea to jack up the rear or parking her downwards a steep hill

[ventura ace]

I think Mark had a good point that the noise could be the Aux shaft lobe, if it wasn't clocked right . . . or it could be valves hitting pistons if the cam wheels weren't clocked right, but I'm sure you know how those pulleys are supposed to be set, and i'd think that you do have them set properly. Doesn't hurt to double check, though.

If your oil seals are leaking around the crankshaft, aux shaft, or any shaft, I'd think you would see signs of oil drooling from the seal in addition to oil flinging from the rotating pulleys. And since you haven't mentioned any oil dripping down the face of the seals or seal retainers, or parts below them, it just doesn't sound like a dynamic seal leak to me.

Did you learn any more?

A

[Tappy]

i forgot to mention , i heared a ticking noise 2 Listen carefully to your cam boxes , mine was caused by the wrong placement of the (shim)buckets While demontaging them they fell out , and probably installed in a wrong order again. This caused the bucket to get stuck for a nanosecond or so and then slammed back by the camshaft. I solved the problem demontaging again and sanding with a grid 2000 the cam boxes Ticking problem resolved !!

[fiasco]

Another long day under the hood. Alvon (Ventura Ace) emailed me on Thursday and asked if I would let him come over and spend all day Saturday working on my car. After rechecking the list of escapees from the Insane Fiat Owners Asylum I said, sure, come on down.

We started by replacing two valve shims that had gotten tighter (go figure) since we had originally installed them. Then we found the problem with the radiator fan (loose wire in a relay) and fixed that up lickity split. Then we started looking for the oil leak.

We wiped everything down, and cleaned everything off, and then ran the engine. Same result as I had found before - no obvious source of leaking oil, but much obvious oil flinging off the cam pulleys. Next we took off the cam pulleys. Still no obvious source. Then the aux pulley and housing. No love. Then a quick trip to Reyy's house to borrow the big socket and breaker bar, and back to my house to get the crank pulley off. And guess what? There it was. The toothed pulley on the crank shaft had somehow pinched or smashed or grabbed onto the seal and torn it to pieces. It was a mess, and an obvious source of leaking oil that was then getting on the belt and traveling up to the top of the engine and flinging off the pulleys.

So a couple of calls and a quick trip to Mark's shop for a new seal, then back to my house. New seal in, pulleys back on, belt back on, radiator with working fan back on, zip zip, and start her up. No oil flinging off the pulleys! Yea! Drove her around the block and took another look - still looks good. Short trip to Panda Express, a little dinner, short trip back and another look. Still looks good. There are a couple of potential spots of seepage that I'll have to keep an eye on, but as of tonight, no major leaks, no overheating, and a nice smooth-running, strong engine.

So with a big round of applause for Alvon, and two fingers firmly crossed, I'm calling this one done and done.

Let's go for a drive.

-- se