Oil leaks on new engine

[fiasco]

The new engine is leaking a little oil. Not a lot of oil, but since it's so clean, the oil that is leaking is very visible (at least to me).

There is oil pooling on top of the head between the cam towers, right at the front of the engine. It is on the timing shield bracket and around all the head and cam bolts at the front.



I also have a little oil running down both sides of the block. On the intake side it is most visible just below the fuel pump block-off plate and on the bottom of the oil pump.




On the exhaust side, there is a sheen of oil on the block at the front end.



Underneath the engine, I can see where it is running down and dripping off the clutch cable and the big blue wire under the trans.



So I need some ideas. Is it possible that my cam towers are not tight enough, and I have oil seeping out there? How about the head bolts? We were a little tentative when torquing down the cam bolts because they kept stripping out the threads in the head.

Thanks all!
-- se

[rlux4]

Hey Steve, I didn't know you had a Spider!
A couple of your leaks could be from new gaskets needing tightening, just don't tighten too much. I would wait for more feedback on the cam towers, they won't take much more torque. You may end up replacing the heli-coils with a better system. Let's see what the consensus is before you do anything with them.
Ron

[So Cal Mark]

heli coils should be able to take lots more torque than the oem aluminum threads. Were the helicoils installed so they are below the gasket surface?
Leaks up top can be from the oil cap, or blowing back from the cam seals. Is the backside of the cam sprocket wet? The cam covers may need to be retightened

[fiasco]

There are heli coils on the four bolts under the cam cover on the exhaust side - all below gasket level. All the others are au-natural. So those four are solid, but we were scared of the others and only torqued them to 14 lbs (the manual called for 18).

The oil filler cap seems nice and tight, and has a good rubber seal. There is oil on the back sides of the cam pulleys, and after driving today, there was a strip of oil along the back side of the timing belt (see pic).

Do you think the cam seals could be bad (or poorly installed, since they are brand new)?



Thanks,
-- se

[rlux4]

It's hard to see where the leak(s) may be coming from. The ones shown in the bottom picture could be from the same source, and then being flung around by the cams. The best bet would be to clean everything up real well and then run the engine and watch for where it's coming from. If the seals on the front of the cams were leaking, it shouldn't end up on the top side like it is.
Ron

[racydave]

Oil leaks always run down, so look on top first. Sometimes the oil caps dont seal. If you clean it up, and run it briefly, you can always use some baby powder for a tracer. There is also a oil dye, but you need a black-light, and some funny yellow glasses. You did use the tube of teflon sealer on the bolt threads?

[fiasco]

I hear what you're saying about oil running down, but I don't see anything above the timing shield bracket that would drip oil down onto the top of it. Same thing with the oil on the timing belt.

There is no oil on the cam cover, directly under the oil filler cap, so I don't think the oil is coming from there.

If there is oil coming from the cam seals and getting on the backs of the pulleys, could the pulleys be throwing oil around (Ron, it sounds like you're saying you don't think so, but I just wanted to clarify). Is it more likely that oil ending up in those places would originate from cam covers that need to be tightened?

Here's another piece of the puzzle. My blow-by hose is not currently connected to my air cleaner (need a different fitting), and is therefore venting into the engine bay. It doesn't seem like there would be enough goop coming out of there to account for all the oil I am seeing, and I can't imagine why it would be collecting in the places it is, and not just coating everything under the hood.

I'll try a running test tomorrow afternoon. So far, when I have tried that, I have not been able to actually see any oil coming out anywhere, but I have not been very patient. I think I need to do a little longer test and let things get good and warm, as well as rev it a little while I have my eye on things under the hood.

-- se

[So Cal Mark]

if there is oil on the back of the cam pulleys, it has to be coming from the cam seals. Leaks in any other place will not result in oil on the back of the pulleys.

[SpiderHead]

I hesitate to post, only because I'd need to see it, but I am starting to suspect two things.

My first suspicion is that the leak is indeed coming from the the front end of the cam towers. We were timid in torquing them, as the head seemed to be having difficulty with dealing with the torque levels required. This was the scary bit, but perhaps we were just a little too timid.

My second suspicion is probably not well founded, but I think worth addressing. All of the oil is in (and under) the area of the EGR valve. I've fiddled with EGR valves my whole life, with out ever really knowing what they are or what they do.... exactly... its some smog bullshit, but is it possible that it contains, or could contain, or could become an oil pathway... and a potential leak path for oil in minor amounts if it, or some other part of the smog system was not quite up to snuff? or if we routed vacuum lines incorrectly? IE. If we are actually sucking oil from where it should be, to a leak point, and depositing it where it shouldn't be?

-Ryan

[So Cal Mark]

no oil in the egr system

[fiasco]

I'm going to watch it run a bit this afternoon and see if I can see anything, but I'm betting that the cam seal on the passenger side was installed incorrectly and is leaking. If so, what are the chances that I can pull it out, and then put it back in correctly? Or will I need to replace it with a new one?

Here's what I think happened:


Here's what I think my procedure will be - someone correct me if I'm wrong.

1. Remove the radiator hoses from the T on the front of the engine
2. Make sure everything is lined up at TDC and the timing pulleys are on their marks
3. Loosen nuts on timing pulleys
4. Slip off timing belt
5. Remove timing pulleys
6. Inspect cam seals - take pics and post on the forum
7. Wait for feedback
8. If required, remove cam seal(s) and reinstall or install new one(s)
8. a. If necessary, take the cam cover off and find the disintegrated tension spring that is now floating around in the oil
9. Take pics and post on forum again, to confirm correct installation
10. Put timing pulleys back on and make sure everything is lined up on their marks
11. Put timing belt back on
12. Torque down the timing pulley nuts (will have to get a torque wrench from AutoZone and call Ace for the torque values)
13. Put the radiator hoses back on, refil and burp the coolant system
14. Start it back up and hope for the best

Let me know what you guys think.
-- se

[ventura ace]

Steve,
1) Don’t take anything apart until you know absolutely for sure where the leaks are coming from
2) Oil flows down to collect on ledges, crevices, overhangs, etc., so look above the wetted spots where you see it pooling, and you may see a faint hint of shiny surface above where you see the oil. Use a good bright light source and look at different angles so that you can see the light reflecting off the oily surface. Feel the surface with your fingers or a clean white tissue or Q-tip, to detect wetness. Cam tower covers and the oil filler cap are common sources for leaks.
3) Clean the oily surfaces and check again. Be sure of where the leak (s) originates.
4) If you determine you have a camshaft seal leak:
a. Could be at outer surface where it is pressed into the cam tower housing –look for any little scratches in the surface finish (I don’t recall seeing any, but double check). Be sure to use sealant when installing new seal.
b. Could be a blemish on the camshaft – look for any scratches and carefully polish smooth if you find any (I don’t recall seeing any, but double check). The camshaft may have been polished before and may be slightly undersize where the seal sits. Only way to know is to measure with a pair of micrometers or calipers.
c. The rubber seal could be blemished, or the spring preload may not be enough, especially if the camshaft has a reduced diameter (see b. above) or if the rubber seal has aged and is not deflected as easy as it should with the spring. A common practice is to remove the spring, and make it shorter to give more spring preload. The spring is a long coiled spring with the 2 ends overlapping each other. Find the overlap and study it closely to see how much overlap there is. Pull the 2 ends apart, then either cut off about 1/8” – 1/4” and install with same overlap, or just install with about 1/8” – 1/4” more overlap than before. I know some people that do this for all their spring energized seals (the down side is more likely to wear a groove in the shaft over the long haul).
d. If you know that that you have a leak at the base of the cam tower in addition to camshaft seal leak, I prefer to take the cam tower off and remove the cam shaft to replace the seal (you may find that everything is OK except for spring tension, and you can pop the spring out, shorten the spring, and put it back together). A good practice when installing the camshaft is to push the shaft in, then remove the shaft to ensure that the seal spring is staying put, then reinstall shaft again. Always lube the shaft and seal, and rotate the shaft while pushing through the seal.
5) If your cam tower base seals are leaking, you can try tightening the bolts a smidge, but I think you will need rework of the head to improve the threads for the cam tower bolts so that the can be tightened to the proper torque. You recall how bad the threads were when we attempted to torque the towers during the install. I would contact a machine shop to have time-certs installed, and they may prefer to fill in the holes (with welded aluminum) where the helicoils have already been installed. You may be better off to disassemble the other cylinder head that you have and inspect both heads closely to determine which is the better one to use – maybe the other one is OK as is. The advantage of working on the other head is that you can continue driving the car, and give yourself a few weeks to get the other head done the way it should be done without pressure from being rushed to cut corners.
6) The other places that you showed on the engine (Fuel pump plate, Oil filter pedestal, etc) are easy fixes -- but make sure that that is where the leak is, and it is not coming from above and just pooling there. If that is the leak, disassemble, clean, inspect closely for scratched surfaces, install with new gasket and sealant.

Alvon

[karhawk]

I'm going to watch it run a bit this afternoon and see if I can see anything, but I'm betting that the cam seal on the passenger side was installed incorrectly and is leaking. If so, what are the chances that I can pull it out, and then put it back in correctly? Or will I need to replace it with a new one?

Here's what I think happened:


Here's what I think my procedure will be - someone correct me if I'm wrong.

1. Remove the radiator hoses from the T on the front of the engine
2. Make sure everything is lined up at TDC and the timing pulleys are on their marks
3. Loosen nuts on timing pulleys
4. Slip off timing belt
5. Remove timing pulleys
6. Inspect cam seals - take pics and post on the forum
7. Wait for feedback
8. If required, remove cam seal(s) and reinstall or install new one(s)
8. a. If necessary, take the cam cover off and find the disintegrated tension spring that is now floating around in the oil
9. Take pics and post on forum again, to confirm correct installation
10. Put timing pulleys back on and make sure everything is lined up on their marks
11. Put timing belt back on
12. Torque down the timing pulley nuts (will have to get a torque wrench from AutoZone and call Ace for the torque values)
13. Put the radiator hoses back on, refil and burp the coolant system
14. Start it back up and hope for the best

Let me know what you guys think.
-- se

If you end up finding leaks coming from the cam covers, renew the gaskets and use gasket sealer on the exhaust side. Also it sounded like you were having trouble head bolt torque, I personally would not reuse head bolts, they stretch and will not torque down properly. I used turbo spider head bolts that have hardness factor of 10.8. when I rebuilt my daughters head. Also make sure your valve covers are flat and don't over torque them.

Chris
Oakland, Ca.
http://scratchybottom.blogspot.com/

[manoa matt]

Steve,

There is no way the oil seal on the cam housings would do that. The end of the cam sticks past the seal a considerable distance and engages into the back of the pulley. You would not be able to fit the cam pulleys if that was the case.

When you guys installed the oil seals and the installed the seals over the shafts did you apply any oil or grease on the seal lip and shaft first? A bone dry rubber oil seal on a spinning metal shaft will wear slightly. OR It's possible that the used cam has a groove in it from previous oil seals.

The oil near the front of the head in the valley betwen the cam boxes is likely form the oil cap, or cam cover gaskets.

Oil near the filter, pressure gauge sender, and low pressure warning light are all prone to leaking. Try copper washers on the senders, and tighten the filter slightly. You can remove and replace the senders without draining the oil. If that does not work try teflon tape, but make sure you have metal to metal contact somewhere. If you use teflon tape and bottom out the sender so its base touches the aluminum casting it should still work.

If you got oil leaking out around the fuel pump block off plate and the oil filter mounting to block interface then its probably the RTV sealant. If you used the grey stuff..it will leak. You need to get the best RTV sealant red or blue. You can try to tighten those bolts more to see if it stops. The bolts are into the cast iron block so stripping the threads is less likely.

After replacing all the oil seals and gaskets on my engine and head I still had a few leaks. Some were attributed to the grey RTV sealant, which I replaced those areas with red and now no leaks. Gauge senders sometimes require several attempts before they stop leaking. Is the low pressure sender new? I've seen old ones leak internally.

I got everything sealed up and non leaking on the daily driver. Just changed the oil a few weeks ago and noticed a few leaks at the dip stick to block connection, at the oil filter, and at the oil fill cap. They were not leaking before the oil change. New oil is thinner than used oil and will leak out sometimes. After a few weeks the leaks stopped.

[So Cal Mark]

I'd advise against trying to shorten the springs on the seals. A lip seal properly installed won't leak. Applying excess pressure by shortening the spring will cause the seal to wear prematurely and fail. I'd torque the cam boxes to 17-18 ft lbs, make sure the cam covers are tight. If there is oil on the back of the cam sprockets, the seal is leaking, probably from installation damage