Oil dump from top end on fresh rebuild - Thoughts?
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ORFORD2004
- Posts: 1122
- Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:48 pm
- Your car is a: 1983 PININFARINA
- Location: Sherbrooke, Qc, Canada
Re: Oil dump from top end on fresh rebuild - Thoughts?
Start by removing the valve cover to look if you see something and you can check your valves clearances.
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17alloveragain
- Posts: 14
- Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2021 8:28 pm
- Your car is a: 1978 Fiat Spider
Re: Oil dump from top end on fresh rebuild - Thoughts?
Update:
Sigh.
The diagnosis is that the oil saturated the timing belt, and it jumped time (while it looked ok to me, it was indeed off a few teeth and nubs on the newly installed belt were a bit rounded). Several valves are bent, and all 4 pistons show impacts. In cyl. 1, the impact caused something to break free and shrapnel from that did a number on that piston and combustion chamber of the head. The tight spot I was feeling turning it by hand apparently was from debris embedded in the piston coming into contact with the head. Fortunately, the cylinder bores themselves escaped any harm. They are good, the rods are straight and the bearings are good. It will get new pistons (again), rings (again), rod bearings (because why not), and a head.
It could have been worse. But it could have been better. First world problem, I suppose.
Thanks again for the responses and support. See y'all on the other side of rebuild part deux.
Sigh.
The diagnosis is that the oil saturated the timing belt, and it jumped time (while it looked ok to me, it was indeed off a few teeth and nubs on the newly installed belt were a bit rounded). Several valves are bent, and all 4 pistons show impacts. In cyl. 1, the impact caused something to break free and shrapnel from that did a number on that piston and combustion chamber of the head. The tight spot I was feeling turning it by hand apparently was from debris embedded in the piston coming into contact with the head. Fortunately, the cylinder bores themselves escaped any harm. They are good, the rods are straight and the bearings are good. It will get new pistons (again), rings (again), rod bearings (because why not), and a head.
It could have been worse. But it could have been better. First world problem, I suppose.
Thanks again for the responses and support. See y'all on the other side of rebuild part deux.
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18Fiatsandcounting
- Posts: 3864
- Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:23 pm
- Your car is a: 1969 and 1971 124 spiders
- Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Oil dump from top end on fresh rebuild - Thoughts?
Wow, "sigh" is the right word here, although I can come up some versions that aren't as family friendly....
I know that the 2L is a non-interference engine in that if the timing belt breaks, the cutouts in the pistons are big enough so that the valves can never hit the pistons. Apparently not so in an 1800.
However, you might not need as many parts as you think. I had a valve lockup many years ago in my '69 spider, and the timing belt broke. I had many bent valves and 2 broken valve heads that were rattling around in the combustion chamber. Surprisingly, a new set of valves and guides fixed the problem, and the block and head continued to run fine for many years. Your situation may be different, so have it thoroughly checked out.
By the way, "shrapnel" in the combustion chamber is often a piece off of the lower edge of the valve guide that gets broken off when the valve impacts the piston.
-Bryan
I know that the 2L is a non-interference engine in that if the timing belt breaks, the cutouts in the pistons are big enough so that the valves can never hit the pistons. Apparently not so in an 1800.
However, you might not need as many parts as you think. I had a valve lockup many years ago in my '69 spider, and the timing belt broke. I had many bent valves and 2 broken valve heads that were rattling around in the combustion chamber. Surprisingly, a new set of valves and guides fixed the problem, and the block and head continued to run fine for many years. Your situation may be different, so have it thoroughly checked out.
By the way, "shrapnel" in the combustion chamber is often a piece off of the lower edge of the valve guide that gets broken off when the valve impacts the piston.
-Bryan
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17alloveragain
- Posts: 14
- Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2021 8:28 pm
- Your car is a: 1978 Fiat Spider
Re: Oil dump from top end on fresh rebuild - Thoughts?
The saga is finally over, and my Spider is back on the road. I am going to start a new post, but on the off chance those who replied wanted to know, I am putting it here too.
To refresh, I had my engine rebuilt and it was running well until the oil cap let go and spewed oil on everything, including the timing belt. The belt later jumped and chewed up valves and pistons.
After that, I took it back for another build with new pistons, rings and a new head. The shop put everything back together, and got it running. When I drove it home, though, it was knocking but only under load at about 3k rpm. Lower or higher, it made no noise. A lot of troubleshooting revealed nothing external.
Then, my impatience and frustration got me. I had the front up on jack stands - two on the outside and one for safety in the middle of the crossmember. In my haste to turn it over after checking some things over, I did not take it out of gear. The car lurched forward, came off the two outside stands, sending the middle stand into the rear of the oil pan. F me. It dented it pretty significantly but it thankfully did not break and dump oil everywhere.
Back up in the air and off with the pan, which was dented but not broke open and not in contact with a rod cap. Turns out, taking the pan all the way off is not easy and requires a lot of additional work with the engine in the car. So, I left it there. But I could reach the front rod caps. Nos. 1 and 2 were loose and clearly knocking. F.
I resolved to starting over with the engine. Completely. (And not taking it back to the shop that did the work.)
I got in touch with Jon at Midwest 124, talked through the saga, and ordered an engine. I then set about pulling my engine to take the parts I would need for the new one off. I shipped Jon the head (which he previously built to replace the one that got chewed up). He then set out to build the engine.
While waiting for the new power plant, I tore down the knocking engine. All four of the rod caps were loose. The nuts were torqued, but they would knock when wiggled. Micrometer measurements confirmed the crank was exactly at the first undersized step. It turns out the shop that did the work forgot the crank was ground the first time and used standard bearings on build 2. No bearings had spun, and there was no damage to the crank, rods or caps. I hadn't put more than 15 miles on it before digging in.
The "new" engine arrived in a crate after not too much time. It was pure artwork. I cleaned up all the accessories that were going on it, took care of a few other things with easy access, and put the new motor in. Got it cranking and after a lot of trial and error got it running, but terribly. At one point, the choke stuck open and the exhaust got h-o-t. I was sure I destroyed another engine. For the life of me, I could not get it to run without backfiring and bogging down under load.
I was going to give up and just move on from this car. But it has sentimental value, so I made one last call - the call I should have made in the beginning of this saga. I called Allison Automotive in Upland. I hadn't before because, though I am in Southern California, I thought it was a bit far to get the car up there. I spoke to Juvi, the owner now of RestoMotive that took over from Allison. He listened to my tales of woe and found time for me to bring it in. Hail Mary it is.
I hauled the car up there with a U-Haul trailer (it was not too far for me to go and I really should have taken it there from the get-go). We got it off the trailer, and fired it up. Juvi confirmed it was running poorly. He saw that the carb was dumping fuel and the secondaries were stuck open. I was getting hopeful.
As an aside, the RestoMotive shop is like a Fiat enthusiast wonderland. Fiats galore. Fiat parts galore. If I had any real skills as a mechanic, I would beg Juvi for a job.
The next business day, I got a call. The car is running. And running well. A combo of carb issues and my poor ignition timing were the culprits. While there, I figured I would have them do a few more things beyond my pay grade (new exhaust, fix a window regulator, fix brake calipers that were binding after sitting so long, and a few other nits). A couple weeks later, I picked up the car with another trailer. I had to set it aside for the rest of the week, but this weekend I took it out for a good shake down. Damn if it isn't running like a bloody top. It is smooth, powerful, and throaty. Oil pressure - great. Temp - great. Throttle response - great. Sound - amazing. I've put about a hundred miles on it in the last two days. It is finally loving me as much as I love it. *Knocks wood*
As an added bonus to this whole ordeal, I have a "spare" engine now that I put back together on a display stand in my office. It has the correct rod bearings, the old head machined and rebuilt to erase the time-skip carnage, and a few refurbished parts. It is a helluva conversation piece. Who knows, it might go into a car one day....
In closing, don't give up. These cars can love you back. And, if you have the need and the means, call Jon and/or Juvi to make your car happy. If you're out there, fellas, I cannot thank you enough. Thanks, too, to Bryan and others on this forum for the many replies and advice.
-Sean aka 17alloveragain
To refresh, I had my engine rebuilt and it was running well until the oil cap let go and spewed oil on everything, including the timing belt. The belt later jumped and chewed up valves and pistons.
After that, I took it back for another build with new pistons, rings and a new head. The shop put everything back together, and got it running. When I drove it home, though, it was knocking but only under load at about 3k rpm. Lower or higher, it made no noise. A lot of troubleshooting revealed nothing external.
Then, my impatience and frustration got me. I had the front up on jack stands - two on the outside and one for safety in the middle of the crossmember. In my haste to turn it over after checking some things over, I did not take it out of gear. The car lurched forward, came off the two outside stands, sending the middle stand into the rear of the oil pan. F me. It dented it pretty significantly but it thankfully did not break and dump oil everywhere.
Back up in the air and off with the pan, which was dented but not broke open and not in contact with a rod cap. Turns out, taking the pan all the way off is not easy and requires a lot of additional work with the engine in the car. So, I left it there. But I could reach the front rod caps. Nos. 1 and 2 were loose and clearly knocking. F.
I resolved to starting over with the engine. Completely. (And not taking it back to the shop that did the work.)
I got in touch with Jon at Midwest 124, talked through the saga, and ordered an engine. I then set about pulling my engine to take the parts I would need for the new one off. I shipped Jon the head (which he previously built to replace the one that got chewed up). He then set out to build the engine.
While waiting for the new power plant, I tore down the knocking engine. All four of the rod caps were loose. The nuts were torqued, but they would knock when wiggled. Micrometer measurements confirmed the crank was exactly at the first undersized step. It turns out the shop that did the work forgot the crank was ground the first time and used standard bearings on build 2. No bearings had spun, and there was no damage to the crank, rods or caps. I hadn't put more than 15 miles on it before digging in.
The "new" engine arrived in a crate after not too much time. It was pure artwork. I cleaned up all the accessories that were going on it, took care of a few other things with easy access, and put the new motor in. Got it cranking and after a lot of trial and error got it running, but terribly. At one point, the choke stuck open and the exhaust got h-o-t. I was sure I destroyed another engine. For the life of me, I could not get it to run without backfiring and bogging down under load.
I was going to give up and just move on from this car. But it has sentimental value, so I made one last call - the call I should have made in the beginning of this saga. I called Allison Automotive in Upland. I hadn't before because, though I am in Southern California, I thought it was a bit far to get the car up there. I spoke to Juvi, the owner now of RestoMotive that took over from Allison. He listened to my tales of woe and found time for me to bring it in. Hail Mary it is.
I hauled the car up there with a U-Haul trailer (it was not too far for me to go and I really should have taken it there from the get-go). We got it off the trailer, and fired it up. Juvi confirmed it was running poorly. He saw that the carb was dumping fuel and the secondaries were stuck open. I was getting hopeful.
As an aside, the RestoMotive shop is like a Fiat enthusiast wonderland. Fiats galore. Fiat parts galore. If I had any real skills as a mechanic, I would beg Juvi for a job.
The next business day, I got a call. The car is running. And running well. A combo of carb issues and my poor ignition timing were the culprits. While there, I figured I would have them do a few more things beyond my pay grade (new exhaust, fix a window regulator, fix brake calipers that were binding after sitting so long, and a few other nits). A couple weeks later, I picked up the car with another trailer. I had to set it aside for the rest of the week, but this weekend I took it out for a good shake down. Damn if it isn't running like a bloody top. It is smooth, powerful, and throaty. Oil pressure - great. Temp - great. Throttle response - great. Sound - amazing. I've put about a hundred miles on it in the last two days. It is finally loving me as much as I love it. *Knocks wood*
As an added bonus to this whole ordeal, I have a "spare" engine now that I put back together on a display stand in my office. It has the correct rod bearings, the old head machined and rebuilt to erase the time-skip carnage, and a few refurbished parts. It is a helluva conversation piece. Who knows, it might go into a car one day....
In closing, don't give up. These cars can love you back. And, if you have the need and the means, call Jon and/or Juvi to make your car happy. If you're out there, fellas, I cannot thank you enough. Thanks, too, to Bryan and others on this forum for the many replies and advice.
-Sean aka 17alloveragain