'84 engine work - how much?

[Wolfman2332]

Good day gentle people! I have been lurking here for a while, and have fed my former love of the 124 (had a 73) by buying an '84 last fall. A beautiful experience, and I am back in love. It has now been moved out of Winter storage, and is in the shop for brakes, belt, etc. In that visit, I also wish to perk the car up a little (OK - maybe a lot). The fuel injection is amazingly good, and the car performs well. But... well, I just gotta putz with it. intended goals of car - hot dogs and cruising with top down. Location - Chicago. Here is what I am considering:

Abarth headers
274 Cams
New head, with OS valves (the current head has a small leak, which I am using as an excuse for all this)
9.8:1 dome pistons
Adjustable cam sprokets.
All other changes are cosmetic.

Now for the questions and hopefully guidance:
Am I over the top?
Can pistons be swapped in situ?
Can I stay with the existing fuel injection system< or will it need mods/replacement?

If I am over the top, your suggestions and ideas on the best approach to mods would be warmly received.

Final note: I am not doing any of the work myself - back in the day I did this stuff. Now I just want to enjoy a good time in my remaining years. I expect to drive about 5k miles per year, mostly freeway and some back roads. Am putting pre 74 bumpers and lowering the car to original lines. I will also be participating in local meetups as time and opportunity presents itself.

[18Fiatsandcounting]

Hey Wolfie, this sounds fairly reasonable so I don't think it's over the top. I would work with a good machine shop to do all the work, and while you can replace pistons with the engine in the car, it's much easier and better to just pull the engine and then you get a chance to check everything out. Crankshaft, bearings, etc.

A better flowing exhaust is always helpful. If you get the adjustable cam sprockets, you'll need someone who can actually dial in your cams to the desired timing. It's not something an average repair shop would be able to do on a Fiat.

Wherever you buy the parts, I'd check with them as to whether it all works together and there are no interference problems. Like the valves hitting the pistons since you have different pistons, larger valves, and different cams.

I don't know much about fuel injection and performance, so maybe someone else can comment. My sense is that the ECU will adjust the firing of the injections to compensate for the added air flow through your new engine, but that's just my guess. Your parts supplier might know.

-Bryan

[TheBender]

I’ve got a friend in Chicago that’s not on this board anymore. He has done a lot of work to his FI car. Here’s his reply, send me a message if you want his contact information.

He’s spot on, but could go with bigger cams. Tell him compression is where the magic happens. The stock EFI can handle a lot but aggressive cams and super high compression are pushing it.

Giovanni at AutoSprint should be on his speed dial.

Feel free to connect me with him. A local FIAT friend would co a long way to reinvigorate my interest in the car.

[Nut124]

If you have the $$ like you sound you do, I'd consider contacting Jon at Midwest124. I know he does a lot of carburated engines. I assume he knows FI as well.

Power comes from higher rpm = bigger cam. Not sure what the 274 cam is but in general I'd say you need a 285-300 deg seat-to-seat duration cam to make 135+HP at about 6800. Cam specs vary in how they are measured and it's hard to compare unless you have the exact lift profile.

The problem is that unlike some modern cars, older Fiat performance parts are not exactly bolt on but require measurement, adjustment, tweaking = many hours at $80/hr.

It could easily get into $10K plus for just the engine.

[Wolfman2332]

Giovanni is my man. He has been referred to me by several knowledgeable people, and after meeting him his team, and especially Josephine, I am confident they will do an outstanding job. That we can do a piston swap in situ is encouraging - we do in in planes all the time, and I hae done it on a car. However, cars are a lot different, and I had a concern witht he glazing of the cylinder walls not permitting a good seating of the rings.

10K for engine is a little steep, but I wan tto kind of get this done and driving - as I am getting older, time is more precious.

My sincere thanks for the advice, and hope we meet over the summer.

[Wolfman2332]

Thinking about, it is worth it. These are beautiful cars, designed with elegance and performance that while not earth shattering, is very good. Poking them with a little more is a noble goal (in my mind). While it is no longer 'original', that is a creeping definition in my mind. Frankly, once you have changed the oil, is it original (OK - a little over the top, but I hope point made).

Just driving it Monday was wonderful - how tight the transmission was. It was sweet. I can't wait to get it out and play.

Based on your thoughts, we are going to go full tilt boogie. Will look forward to additional input. I will not be trashing and hole shoting this - it will be driven with modest aggression.

[Wolfman2332]

Status report - Dropped car at Giocvanni's last week Monday 3/3/23.
Visited yesterday (3/8/23) in the morning. Holy cow does he work fast! Here is where we are as of Wednesday:
Engine is out, honed, painted in primer
Cams installed in head
lowering springs installed
Front bumper is on (damn it looks goos!)
headlight adaption started (need to modify the frame for combined signal in body)

Still lots to do (another order to autorecambi - I expect a Christmas card .

Best news is the overall state of the body - it is like brand new underneath! No rust, all the fasteners are bright, etc. Gonna be a sweet car when done.

One last question from all of you - I am putting the Iskt valve springs in the engine. Will this increase the red line? If so, how much? (running9.7: domed pistons)

My thanks to all for the guidance and input! See you at the dog n suds (they still around?)

[18Fiatsandcounting]

One last question from all of you - I am putting the Iskt valve springs in the engine. Will this increase the red line?

Isky valve springs will help avoid valve "float" at higher rpms, but this isn't usually an issue for the 2L engines. The earliest engines (the 1438cc) used the same valve train, and stock engines were good to 7000 rpm and beyond, while the redline for the stock 2L is much lower.

However, if you have modified your 2L engine to allow safe revving up to 7000 and beyond, then yes, the Isky springs would help avoid the valve float, and in general, to keep your valve movements closely tracking the cam's profile.

-Bryan

[TheBender]

Still lots to do (another order to autorecambi - I expect a Christmas card .

I’m glad the referrals worked out. It’s not a Christmas card, consider it a post card from my monthly, sometimes weekly, visits to AutoRicambi.

[Wolfman2332]

Thanks Bryan. I did at the 9.7:1 pistons and moderate cams (274). Valve float would not be welcome.

Car is almost done, and Giovanni is blowing my mind with the fast, prompt, and excellent service. I believe he will be done late next week. I am adding one more project - I need to tether my dog into the rear seat, and I am planning on attaching seat belt female end to the same location as the current seat belts attachment points. Idea being they will be strong enough. He weighs in at 40#, and I will put a bed there for him to sleep/rest on.

And drawing up next years project list

[TheBender]

I removed my back lower cushion and made a wood platform for my dog. Did slight padding and carpet finish. Could easily do something like that and attach something to tether to. My dog is 120 lbs, he sunk in the seat a little too much and he didn’t like the instability.

[Wolfman2332]

Dog mount is a challenge - here's the story:

Went to Amazon to get a harness and stuff. Prices varied from 18 to 50 - an done said tested. Hmmmm.......

Down the rabbit hole we go. Found a Canadian Broadcasting (CBC) test of 15 harnesses - it was gruesome to watch. In the 30mph test, only 1 harness did not totally self destruct. The others were various results that ended in dead. Found more tests, and realized that I had two objectives -
1) Keep meatball out of the front seat and prevent him from jumping out for a critter, and
2) Protect him in a crash.

I have identified the Purina 'roadie' harness as on the passed and will fit him well.

Second part was the actual tether and car attachment. Having redefined the objectives, I began looking for tethers and attachments. The eye bolt in the floor idea was looking like a very bad idea. So I found some golf cart seat belts that have a female end, and am attaching the to the frame next to the should harnesses. All of the car tethers had male seat belts ends, so that makes sense. By using both seat belt ends, I hope to distribute the load evenly and balance it. think is he is on the far left, attached on the right - he will be swung into the back of the drivers seat, causing even more injury. It will also ensure the best strength possible if the attachment is not "prefect".

(Meatball's name is Jager, and he is a 40lb French Brittany and the love of my life - after wife and child)

[Wolfman2332]

One further question - is there any value in the Accel Performance Control Module? I looked at the various 'hot rod' distributors, and I don't think I have any need for multiple curves, etc. This is a fun, simple, cruiser that I will on occasion play Jimmy Clark in (at greatly reduced speed and aggressiveness).

[Nut124]

One further question - is there any value in the Accel Performance Control Module? I looked at the various 'hot rod' distributors, and I don't think I have any need for multiple curves, etc. This is a fun, simple, cruiser that I will on occasion play Jimmy Clark in (at greatly reduced speed and aggressiveness).

The Accel ICM is a dumb solid state switch. It has no brains or curves what so ever. The standard part will do the same job just the same. Some folks will claim gains in performance. Not that expensive so no big deal either way.

[Wolfman2332]

thanks Nut124. I bought one just based on we're in so deep, might as well. Tuesday the engine was fired up, and it sounded great - with stock exhaust, it is quiet, and the cams aren't radical at all (274 from Autorecambi). Got to admit, the fuel injection is amazing. It starts on first tap. Kind of glad I kept it. Expect to wrap up let next week or early following week.

Since I have trees overhanging parking area, I need to put the cover on all the time.