Won't go into gear while running

[Spider951]

I recently re-installed engine and transmission, but now I can't put it any gear with the engine running. I had the engine/transmission out to replace cylinder head, clean top of block, install new clutch kit, new clutch cable, new clutch pedal (I even welded a support piece for the pedal fork area), new clutch helper spring (ughh), reworked flywheel. I am 99.99% sure I installed the clutch disc in the correct orientation (a trickle of doubt has started to seep in), and I torqued everything to spec. Clutch lever is sitting on the pivot bolt as it should. I have adjusted, adjusted, and re-adjusted the clutch cable to the prescribed 1 inch of free travel, but the puppy just won't go into gear. It appears that at some point a fix for the dreaded firewall tear may have been made ?? (looks OK but there is some evidence some welding was done at some time in that general area).

I have tried the "bump" trick (car in gear, brief start to jolt the disc/flywheel) - even put the rear up on jack stands to spin the rear wheels (only right rear turns). It will shift into all gears without engine running, but is not the smoothest shift - kinda balks sometimes in most gears, especially first. [The only good news for all this work and $$ is that the engine runs fine, no more smoke (those old valve stem seals were shot), no leaks from the head gasket, new radiator and fan works fine]. But I sorta had my heart set on more than just sitting in the barn while she idles and revs. I am out of ideas. Time for new transmission? I know absolutely zero about gearboxes. Help wanted. Thanks.
Steve

[18Fiatsandcounting]

It doesn't sound like the problem is with the transmission since you can shift it without the engine running. That would seem to imply that the clutch isn't releasing. Here are a few thoughts:

What happens if you put the car in first gear (engine off), then put the clutch all the way in, then start the engine? Does the starter turn slower or does it feel like the car is moving forward a bit? If not, then your clutch is fully releasing.

Did you do any work on the transmission? Newly rebuilt transmissions can be a little stiff for a while, although not as extreme as yours sounds. How about transmission oil? All good there?

Are all the gears equally hard to shift into when the engine is running? First gear can be a little stiff even on a "normal" transmission, but 5th gear should be pretty easy to engage with the engine running and the clutch disengaged. Not that you would want to start out in 5th, but just see if 5th (or reverse) is any easier than 1st or 2nd.

Does it "crunch" at all when trying to put it into gear, or it just won't go?

-Bryan

[Spider951]

Update: some success!!. First to reply to your suggestions:

I put the transmission in first gear with engine off, clutch pedal fully depressed. When starting engine car instantly lurches forward (or with rear wheels off floor, instant spinning of right rear wheel).

No work has been done to the transmission; trans oil was topped up weeks ago.

Equally hard to shift into any and all gears (1-5) - simply impossible; possible exception of reverse, but major grinding when that was attempted, so I didn't force it.

Now the "good" news. I backed way off of adjustment ball/nut (counterclockwise) underneath at clutch lever to where free play was about 2+ inches at clutch pedal. Restarted, and surprise! - I could get it to go into first with clutch pedal fully depressed, right rear wheel spins (still no reverse without major grinding) when letting out clutch pedal. Yea! So I backed off a bit more on adjustment to about 2.5 inches, and can get her to go into 2nd gear; so I continued a tiny bit more backing off and can now go through all 5 forward gears, but still no reverse (some vibration felt in 5th?? I wouldn't swear to the driveshaft being totally balanced, but that's another tale).

I have decided to tinker with the adjustment some more. Maybe I can find the sweet spot; the thing is awfully finicky (I guess that 1.7 mm of driven plate movement is difficult to find). Will attempt to actually drive the car soon. Clutch pedal feels "mushy", and it's difficult to tell the boundary between free play of the pedal and full on pedal resistance but hey, it's progress. The only way currently to go in reverse is to start the car in reverse; it has always been a bit dicey to go in reverse, but not this bad.
Thanks a bunch. I was about ready to jump off a cliff after several days of complete frustration. Now I may just jump off a chair.
[BTW, I did discover along the way perhaps novel ways (?) of dealing with the evil clutch pedal helper spring and the "PITA Supreme" clutch cable hook up at the pedal.]

[Nut124]

Something does not seem quite right here.

First, your clutch would not disengage with pedal fully down. Then you turn the nut CCW and add free pedal travel?

When a clutch does not disengage, it calls for turning the nut CW not CCW?

Do you think the far end of the clutch lever is properly mated to the ball in the bell housing?

[Spider951]

I agree it does not seem right. I have pulled the lever off of the pivot bolt ball (or at least it felt that way; it's hidden behind the rubber dust boot) and pushed it back on - I did this several times over the course of this effort the past few days. And I kept turning the adjustment nut clockwise, thinking surely that is the way to make the throwout bearing do its job. I took it down (clockwise) nearly to the point of no more threads on the cable end. Still no go.

I checked the position of the lever on its pivot ball again today before starting afresh to solve this riddle (pulled it off and then pushed it back on). Frankly, I have wondered whether the stiff rubber boot is part of the problem. I have also wondered whether in all that tightening I was doing initially could I have bent the clutch lever??

The wording of the Haynes manual is ..." When the clutch free pedal travel becomes less than about 1 inch...the position of the control cable end in the clutch actuating lever should be adjusted.....screw the special nut to increase pedal travel as necessary [to achieve the correct free travel]". I only quote (emphasized words mine) this because I kept turning the nut clockwise until there was less than 1 inch of free travel - I then backed off to about 1 inch. However, none of this - less than 1 inch, 1 inch, or slightly more than 1 inch would allow the clutch to work properly. That's why I decided today to start over - from far more than 1 inch and work my way in, tightening the nut as I go and checking for ability to shift. I never suspected that at 2+inches I would get anything to work, and even more surprised that increasing the free travel would allow me to eventually shift into more gears.

Thanks for your interest and input.

[Nut124]

When you pull the lever off the pivot ball and then push it back, can you see if the level correctly engages the thrust bearing?

The bearing has slots for the lever arm to engage. If the arm does not engage the slots, then the clutch would act like as if the nut was all the way CW. The difference between in the slots vs not is likely in the area of 2" or so on the adjustment nut thread.

[Spider951]

I will try to get a look at that. I will probably have to remove the dust boot. Thanks.

[bobplyler]

The firewall can crack around the clutch cable. It's a common occurance. If too bad, no adjustment will allow the clutch to disengage.

[18Fiatsandcounting]

It sounds like you've figured out that the clutch is the issue which is better than having it be a transmission issue. Good ideas above from others: firewall flex where the cable goes through, possible issue with clutch fork, etc. You might also need a new clutch cable if yours is really old and stiff. Could be some flexing of the tang at the top of the clutch pedal where the half-crescent end of the cable slips in. But, since you've already experienced the "PITA Supreme", let's not go there for now.

[BTW, I did discover along the way perhaps novel ways (?) of dealing with the evil clutch pedal helper spring and the "PITA Supreme" clutch cable hook up at the pedal.]

Any new tips that you can share? These jobs have to be in the "Top Ten Fiat Spider PITA List."

-Bryan

[Spider951]

Update 2-14-22: I have verified that the clutch lever is properly placed on the throwout bearing (first photo below).[I also verified how this mechanism works by examination of the original bearing and clutch lever that I had saved.]

Removed the brake fluid reservoir to get a better look at firewall where clutch cable goes through. Firewall appears OK and no flex evident by pushing on it with a screwdriver, but there is evidence of a repair (welding) by PO at some time - see second photo below (red "A"s show weld mat'l in photo - appears as a sort of "U" shaped welded area around where the clutch cable goes through).





I then restarted car and after warmup put the gears through their paces (did not attempt reverse) with position of special nut 2 turns tighter (clockwise) than before (still about 2.5" free play) - able to go through forward gears albeit a bit rougher than before; then I tightened the adjustment in stages - lost ability to shift into 3 and 4 at about 2.25", 5th gear quite dodgy, reverse-absolutely nada; continued tightening a couple more turns (down to a bit less than 2 inches play on the pedal), and first gear OK but not great, 2nd gear just barely with some poking at it; tried 5th at this point and got serious scraping and clunking sounds - immediately backed out of 5th.

I have reminded myself that the car has not been driven since the total destruction of nearly new clutch disc back in the late spring of '21 (probably less than 2K miles on that clutch), with subsequent removal of engine, transmission, new clutch kit etc. I still have no idea what caused the fracturing of the nearly new clutch kit back in '21, but I am now wondering whether the culprit is the tranny. The bad sounds of the above-mentioned attempt to go into 5th were a bit reminiscent of the sounds back in May, '21. I am also mindful that Fiat Spider transmissions are a weak point of the car, and I have no idea how it was treated by the PO. It has about 75K miles on it. I am likely going to once again pull it out; I am 0-2 on trying to refit the tranny to engine without having both engine and gearbox out of the car on a sturdy and stable surface.

(I will post my cable and spring "hacks" at a later date)

[18Fiatsandcounting]

Something seems backwards and I'm confused. If you increase the clutch pedal free play, you find it easier to shift into gears (easier, but still not right)?

This would seem backwards since as you increase the free play, your clutch is releasing less and less for a given pedal travel. In the extreme, with inches of free play, the clutch wouldn't release at all.

We are talking about free play at the top of the pedal travel, yes?

-Bryan

[Spider951]

Yes, it does appear to be backwards. It appears currently the "best" (basically only) choice for shifting into gear is with pedal free play of about 2.5 inches, and it is not trouble free (and no reverse gear). Based on what happened yesterday with trying to shift into 5th gear (clutch pedal fully depressed) and free play of pedal at about 1 inch, I am now afraid to continue with this - will I end up with another fractured clutch disc like in May, 2021?

Late today I had a bit of time to work on it. I moved the adjustment nut to about the middle of its travel, started the engine and just shifted several times into first and second only. Just sitting there listening, I heard some vague metallic sounds coming from the vicinity of the gearbox. Probably not good.

I plan to remove the transmission; leave the engine in. I seriously doubt this particular transmission will be going back in.

[This episode is about as weird as the camshaft dilemma I had a few years ago with the exhaust cam being 180 degrees off (in a transplant engine from an '82 car). That had a happy ending because the camshaft turned out to be a Reed cam and apparently was made that way - engine ran fine until the clutch problem, May, 2021. I live in Fiat bizarro world.]
Thanks

[rridge]

It is easy to install the clutch disc backwards. The faces look the same on both sides. The hub is flush on one side, extended on the other. Reversing the disc can make it difficult to fully release the clutch. A incorrectly installed throwout bearing or pilot bearing will have the same effect.

[bobplyler]

It is easy to install the clutch disc backwards. The faces look the same on both sides. The hub is flush on one side, extended on the other. Reversing the disc can make it difficult to fully release the clutch. A incorrectly installed throwout bearing or pilot bearing will have the same effect.

A friend of mine replaced the clutch on a Corvair. Being used to front engined cars, he put the flywheel side to the front. It wouldn't release at all.

[Spider951]

Update: the problem has been solved - plenty of details could be listed, but in essence the transmission was the culprit, and to a secondary extent the flywheel. Clutch was not the issue, nor my clutch adjustment skills [sic].
First photo below shows the transmission with broken synchro or sleeve (A) (? not really too sure about tranny "innards") and a loose "stop" (B) just laying there [Major error on my part not to have inspected transmission more carefully when it was out the first time about a year ago - the tranny destroyed the clutch disc then]. Funny, but the tranny issues were not readily apparent (to my untrained eye) until the yoke is turned by hand a few times, then it was very obvious. It only took about 2-3 cycles of having the transmission out before I noticed. Note to self: Check transmission first when it fails to shift into gear.


Secondary problem was flywheel. I own three - the first one that was attached to this '82 engine in my '81 car (did that transplant back in 2018) looked kind of "burned" (?) see photo, so I didn't use it.

The replacement flywheel was supposed to be OK , but due to my ignorance it was a bit "groovy" (haven't used that term in a long while) and not very flat. Pictured below is said flywheel (photo is after it sat in the shop for a while this past winter (I think humidity was invented right here in Alabama)). Probably more importantly the "step" was way too small (I had no clue about flywheel "step" until this comedy of errors). These problems led to slipping, even with new transmission installed.

So out she came again.

I chose to go back to the '81 engine to retrieve the flywheel, clean it up (through neglect it had become rather rusty); step and flatness much better and no burned (?) spots. see photo. Oddly (at least to me), the '81 flywheel has three "bands" (yep, labelled 1, 2, 3 in photo). The step up from 1 to 2 is approx. 0.024" and the step down from 2 to 3 is approx. 0.002". And there is no channel (groove) separating bands 1 and 2 like in the other 2 flywheels. Go figure. Whatever, it seems to be working fine.


I learned a bunch during this transmission removal/re-install extravaganza, and I may miss living under my car for several months. I also picked up a few insights on the evil clutch cable, clutch pedal helper spring PITA. But hey, I can now remove and re-install bellhousing and starter motor bolts with my eyes closed.