DOA

[baltobernie]

Where is the car? Maybe a forum member is nearby to have a look, or at least recommend someone.

[Sscottdvm]

The car is in watermill, NY. East end of Long Island. I'm only out there on weekends, maybe the problem will fix itself this weekend. Supposed to be a beach car. Not fun leaving it in the garage and taking the Subaru to the beach.

[nelsonj]

Here's how to tell if the choke is working:
Remove the top of the air cleaner so you can see the two barrels of the carb.
When the car is cold, push the gas to the floor (or pump the gas while starting the car).
The "flaps" at the top of each barrel should now be almost parallel with the ground, in effect blocking/restricting air flow into the carb.
(on a water choke I don't recall if you need to pump the gas to activate the choke - it may return up everytime the car cools fully down. I have to pump once with my electric choke).

As the car warms up, the flaps should slowly pivot downwards, so when the car is fully warmed up, the flaps should be almost perpendicular to the ground so they are not restricting air flow to the carb.

If this is happening, your choke is working properly.

Basically when the car is cold, the choke activates to restrict air flow and increases the richness (amount of gas in the intake air) of the air/fuel mix. This makes it easier to start the car.

My car has a mechanical fuel pump and if it sits for a week or two, it takes a while of cranking the car before the carb has enough gas to work properly. (I think the gas in the bowls evaporates after a week). So don't be concerned if the car takes some "pumping" and cranking to get started if it has sat for a while - normal in my view. But if you turn off the car, and try to start it 30 minutes later, it shouldn't be that hard to get started.

If the choke is working, again I strongly suggest getting carb cleaner and spraying a bunch down the barrels while the air cleaner is off. It could be clogged jets or just gunk in the carb that is making it hard to start. Who knows how old/many miles your carb has on it, and they don't last forever without maintenance. Cleaning it might work magic, or not (and you need a rebuild or a new carb).

It's a 40 year old car - it will have idiosyncrasies. It's not a 2017 Honda!

[Jimb]

Did you check the fuel pump?

Jim

[Sscottdvm]

Since it's a mechanical fuel pump and I can see fuel being pumped into the carb when I pusttue throttle link don't think it's the fuel pump.

I will take Nelsonj advice and spray some carb cleaner. For some reason I remember that the carb only had one flap. The barrel on the drivers side ( could be mistaken). The manual says it a water choke and needs to be pumped once. To open the choke. I will check these things on Friday. Thanks for all the help.
Not a newbie to old cars. Had a 71 MG for 25 years. I guess I just sorted out all of its problems and could understand when it got temperamental.

[nelsonj]

Correction from previous post: I just checked an old carb that came from a 78 (water choke). You are correct - this carb only has one "flap" for the choke. Sorry for misremembering.

[architect]

Try to run the car with the gas cap completely off - I had this problem when I first purchased my Fiat.. turns out the gas tank was getting no air.

[Sscottdvm]

Worth a try. Thx

[bluespider262]

Pull the sock out of the tank and see what condition its in. Mine was a solid brown mass which explained the 5 minute timer on my drives. I was amazed it could pull any fuel at all through it but somehow enough would make its way to make it run good for a few minutes sometimes.

[Sscottdvm]

The ongoing saga continues, although I have taken everyone's advice and think I have it narrowed down to a fuel delivery problem. Here's what happens, always starts right up when cold or sitting for 3-4 hours.
If it sits for 1-2 hours it will start for about 30 seconds than dies. I've looked at the carbs when this happens and I can pump the throttle link and see a few squirts of fuel in the carb, then it stops producing fuel if I continue to pump. So today, I poured some gas into the carb when it did this and after a few pumps it fired right up and continued to run. When I rechecked the carb and pumped the throttle I was getting a nice jet of fuel. So, for some reason when the car is shut down after being run and sits for an hour it isn't getting adequate fuel until it completely cools down, which can take hours. Also , it will start right up again, even when warm if I only let it sit for 15-20 mins. BTW, took nelsonj advice and watched the water choke work and it seems to function properly when the car has rested overnight.
I realize that it's easy to put a new mechanical fuel pump in but if the pump is the problem why does it run fine after it makes it past the first minute of running.
Any new help would be greatly appreciated. I'm really beginning to appreciate the car when it runs but getting tired of only shutting it off in my garage.

[nelsonj]

Hmmm.... Here are my guesses from most to least likely...
Guess 1: It sounds like after the car sits for an hour, it is draining the float-fuel chamber when trying to start and then not recharging it when the float levels fall low enough. If this is the case, the floats aren't working correctly (they get stuck in the "up" position) and the carb is running out of gas. As fuel is used from the carb, the floats should drop, and in turn open a valve that allows more fuel to flow in and get stored in the carb. It could be that when you are driving there are enough bumps and turns that the floats wiggle enough they don't get stuck and allow the car to stay full of fuel. But if the car is just sitting, the floats get stuck in the "don't let any more gas to the carb" position. One solution, if this is the problem - rebuild the carb (at least the float section). A much better solution: replace the carb with a 32/36 Weber (other can chime in if they've had good luck with the lower cost EMPI.

Guess 2: The fuel pump is going out. When the car is running at higher revs, its getting enough flow to keep the car going, but at lower revs, start speed, idol, it's not able to keep up.

In both cases the cold engine has the choke helping it out making it easier to start (before the carb runs out of gas).

Guess 3: What sort of ignition do you have - specifically, do you a non-electronic ignition, and specifically do you have dual points? The dual points systems have some strange emission control that switches to different points once the engine warms up (as I understand it). If you have dual points, if could be this system is malfunctioning and the choke (when the car is cold) is masking the problem, but when the car is luke-warm, the problem causes the car to not-start, stall.

I hope other with more experience rebuilding carbs will chime in, because Guess 1 is my leading candidate.

Good luck - thanks for posting and I hope others here will chime in.

[Sscottdvm]

Thanks for the input. I have checked the choke (as you sugessted) it only kicks in the morning. The rest of the day , whether it starts or not, the flap is always in the open position.

I really don't know about the issue with the points.

I have trouble thinking the carb is the real problem since it runs fine and idles fine once I am able to restart it. I had it idling for 10 mins after I put some gas in the carb to get it running.
The main thing I can see is that at times it won't start, and I pump the throttle, little or no fuel is being injected into the carb. When I check and get good fuel flow it starts and runs fine. So, I think it's a fuel delivery to the carb problem. I've removed the fuel cap and there doesn't seem to be any negative pressure there either. Been reading a lot about vapor lock and if that's the problem putting in a new mechanical fuel pump may not solve the problem. VERY FRUSTRATED.

[seabeelt]

Just a quick note on the carb. If the car is sitting and you pump the gas, (without cranking the engine) you will squirt fuel and eventually deplete what is in the bowl until you start to crank the engine. Mechanical fuel pump with out cranking the engine or any engine rotation equals no fuel. 78's may or may not have the fuel line check valve to prevent fuel tank drain back. Worth having one if you don't have it already. AR sells them Dual points - hmmm there is a relay under the dash that switches from one set to another after the car warms. you can remove the relay and jumper the plug to only run on one set of points (part of the tune up procedure for dual points) this may eliminate a problem of warm or cold starting or not. If you don't have one get a service manual and or Haynes and a wiring diagram from artique.com along with the afore mentioned tools. Food for thought

[Sscottdvm]

I realized that you are correct. Pumping the throttle with the engine off won't produce fuel. if I observe the carb when turning over the engine and still get no fuel does that mean the mechanical fuel pump isn't able to pump fuel to the carb at the times it won't start? If so, that would mean the points or other electrical problems aren't the problem. If it were a problem with the points then pouring gas directly into the carbs, which will allow me to start it, shouldn't make any difference.

[seabeelt]

Possibly your fuel pump might have an internal diaphragm leak letting fuel siphon back to the tank but is still strong enough to pump fuel while running. Typical symptom of this would be that if the car sits for a while it takes longer cranking to return fuel to the carb/engine to get it to fire. a fuel check valve will stop that issue if there is one. If however it starts and after its warm it doesn't want to start could be some type of vapor lock preventing fuel from getting/staying in the carb. Does your carb leak at all? Since its dual points i'm leaning toward the fact that the starting points might be working but the running points might be less than optimal and causing a warm start problem.. just a guess mind Do you have a timing light? Know how to check timing when the car is running?