Won't stay running until warmed up

[rlux4]

I want to 2nd Craig's thanks to Brad. The website is fortunate to have you here Brad. I try to help with the FI questions when they come up, having learned as much as I could from you and your manual. I'm personally grateful that you're here so that I can be corrected (and learn in the process) when I get something wrong.
Ron

[dantye]

I want to 2nd Craig's thanks to Brad. The website is fortunate to have you here Brad. I try to help with the FI questions when they come up, having learned as much as I could from you and your manual. I'm personally grateful that you're here so that I can be corrected (and learn in the process) when I get something wrong.
Ron

Ditto that for sure! Like having Mozart looking over your shoulder while you write music!
I just got the AFM cover off - not simple with that cone filter adapter attached, and learned that the fuel pump rod position is OK, but the AFM flap was sticking almost all the way open, which would be the the explanation for why the fuel pump was on in accessory position. I put some WD40 to both ends of the shaft, and wedged a thin razor knife in the sticking top side of the flap, which seemed to free and straighten it out with plenty of clearance top and bottom. I think THIS problem may be OK now, but must be always ready for the next. I have always driven conservatively, but punched it up to over 4Krpm several times yesterday in several gears, so I guess that's what found the sticking point!

Will post when it is back together and checked. Observations/advice in the interim are welcomed.

[bradartigue]

A few things:

Thanks for the kind words, happy I can help out. Should get online more often than I do... I think this 82 project and the 79 project I just finished have me fired back up.

-> AFM flaps only bend because you have something else going wrong and they blow outwards. If you cannot get your AFM to work correctly due to the bend then you'll have to replace it. I have a spare laying around here somewhere, you're welcome to try it. However, once you get it working you've got to figure out what causes your backfires. First, don't tighten up your big air hose too much on the AFM side. If it backfires it will blow the hose out of the way and not your AFM door. Second, get some Seafoam and run it through your gas tank to clean out any crud. Third, change your oil (use cheap oil the first time, like the cheapest Pennzoil) and put in some CD2 or other valve quieting stuff. Run that for 100 or so miles and dump the oil and change it again with good oil. That may clean up the upper end enough to shut it up.

-> On the BMW Mechanic statement, it was always known that you could set the AFM flap so that the sweep of the door would be measured as "lean" and the FI computer would give it more fuel. However, you gain acceleration and lose top end. Honestly a Spider 2000 with a properly tuned L-Jet should be accelerate quickly and if it isn't I'd look at how your motor is timed and if your advance capsule on your distributor is working. Also if you have the throttle plate and idle screw set wrong you'll have crappy initial acceleration.

-> Those K&N filters don't do much btw. $50 of noise. Kind of like a twin-tip ANSA; sound nice, but really aren't all that great. At least the K&N flows somewhat better, I always thought the ANSA was like putting a mouse in your exhaust pipe.

[dantye]

Update: Carefully took some jewelers files and a thin hacksaw blade to the sticky parts of the AFM flap until it was completely free. Used two full cans of carb cleaner to make sure all the chips were out. Cleaned the rheostat in the AFM with alcohol to remove any WD40 over spray from oiling the flap bearings and spring.Put In New NKG Spark plugs. It still does not hold idle on cold start, but that sticky AFM flap and the fouled plugs together were apparently causing that slight hesitation on acceleration that the car has always had. Boy, what a difference! Now to start over on chasing the cold idle start thing. Slapped some new inside seat belt holders on and hope to be in good enough shape to not be too embarrased at http://intermarque.org/imm.kickoff.html next weekend.
Thanks to Brad and everybody for the tips and help.

[dantye]

After new plugs and freeing the AFM flap, this is how it starts. As you can hear, it starts fine, Idles briefly at about 1000 rpm, then drops off to nothing. But if I hold the accelerator down to keep it running until op temp is reached, it runs fine. I am wondering if the cold start valve is shot and it has previously been the sticky AFM flap that has kept it running at start-up. We will figure it out eventually. Back to the books!

Video Link: http://youtu.be/jKUT0KugExw

[ga.spyder]

I dont pretend to be an expert on the f.i. system.But I believe the cold start vave just gives you a quick burst of fuel to get the car running.It sounds like it is running on that burst from the cold start valve,then dying.Hopefully Ron or Brad will chime in.Frustrating,I know.

[rlux4]

I'm thinking temp sensor in the coolant T. It's a critical sensor, being read by the ECU to determine air/fuel ratio. It goes back to what Brad said, the problem sounds like air, not fuel. If the temp sensor is reading too few ohms when cold it'll increase injector duration and by opening the throttle plate you're allowing more air into the mix to compensate.
I'd check the sensor with an ohm meter. The parameters are in the FI section of Brad's maintenance manual;
http://www.artigue.com/fiat/tuning-book
Back the air bypass screw way out on the throttle body and see if it stays running on the next cold start. Don't leave it backed out though, or at operating temp you'd have the oposite problem, too much air.
Ron

[dantye]

I'm thinking temp sensor in the coolant T. It's a critical sensor, being read by the ECU to determine air/fuel ratio. It goes back to what Brad said, the problem sounds like air, not fuel. If the temp sensor is reading too few ohms when cold it'll increase injector duration and by opening the throttle plate you're allowing more air into the mix to compensate.
I'd check the sensor with an ohm meter. The parameters are in the FI section of Brad's maintenance manual;
http://www.artigue.com/fiat/tuning-book
Back the air bypass screw way out on the throttle body and see if it stays running on the next cold start. Don't leave it backed out though, or at operating temp you'd have the oposite problem, too much air.
Ron

Thanks for the tip:
I tried opening that screw but it would only run for a few seconds longer. However, being an old electronics guy, (from back when the first put transistors in Car Radios) I figured that unplugging the coolant sensor would certainly increase the resistance, and when I did that, It kept running just fine, but I did not let it run too long. Hopefully this did not damage the ECU. I'm guessing the overheating incident I had due to a fouled Coolant recovery tank probably overheated and shorted out the sensor. See: http://fiatspider.com/f08/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=18217. I will throw the meter on it to confirm, but it all makes sense now, since that is when this problem started.

[dantye]

If you can't be smart, LUCKY will work: After freeing the flap in the AFM, I became concerned it might be a problem that the clearances I had created in filing the flap enough to free it were so large that they allowed TOO much air flow. Plus, the contact tracks on the AFM rheostat were worn very deep and the needle on my ancient Ohmeter jumped around a lot when I tried to check the range of the rehostat. So I took a chance and found a used AFM on eBay. EUREKA! My AFM was apparently the ENTIRE problem, both before and after I "fixed" it. It now starts and idles better than ever, ALL hesitation that came from the former multiple "sticking" points in the AFM are gone, although I may never know which part came from the rheostat mis-informing the ECU and which were from physical sticking of the flap. Starting, idle, acceleration and power are so much better that it is like a different car. And I have a new Temp sensor for a spare if I ever need it.

So thank God for everyone who chimed in with suggestions - particularly for Brad - and also for the guy who had a good-as-new AFM, and the two guys who did NOT bid more than $105.00!

[rlux4]

Congratulations.
Don't throw your old AFM away. You may be able to use it as a spare by looening up the set screw on where the sweep arm mounts to the shaft and move the arm up or down the shaft which will result in the contacts riding on a different section of the resistance track. If you go up you may have to bend the brass U shaped arm so that the it still makes good contact with the track.
Ron

[dantye]

Congratulations.
Don't throw your old AFM away. You may be able to use it as a spare by looening up the set screw on where the sweep arm mounts to the shaft and move the arm up or down the shaft which will result in the contacts riding on a different section of the resistance track. If you go up you may have to bend the brass U shaped arm so that the it still makes good contact with the track.
Ron

Good to know, and I will keep it, but I think the Air Flap is toast.

[kacperix]

I have the same problem as You dantye I am start to looking for the new AFM, but in Poland it's more less impossible, so I try to repair old one, do You have any tip with the pictures what should I do step by step?

[divace73]

I have the same problem as You dantye I am start to looking for the new AFM, but in Poland it's more less impossible, so I try to repair old one, do You have any tip with the pictures what should I do step by step?

go through Brad's sequence, you more than likely have un-metered air entering the system http://www.artigue.com/fiatcontent/Arti ... 124_MM.pdf

[KevAndAndi]

I have the same problem as You dantye I am start to looking for the new AFM, but in Poland it's more less impossible, so I try to repair old one, do You have any tip with the pictures what should I do step by step?

I don't know if shipping from Poland would be cost-prohibitive, but an alternative to replacement or do-it-yourself repair is to send it to Fuel Injection Corp. in California for refurbishment. They will bring it back to specs for about $200 plus shipping.

(NB: A used replacement unit is likely to have problems of its own, and a do-it-yourselfer is unlikely to have access to the electronic components and testing apparatus that a company like Fuel Injection has.)

The only other thread mentioning FIC that I can find on this site is this one: http://fiatspider.com/f08/viewtopic.php ... p+#p233655

While I have spoken to FIC on the phone, I haven't yet sent them my AFM. (I have the "won't stay running until warmed up" problem, and I have eliminated virtually all other possible causes.) While reluctant to recommend companies, Dan (sierraspider) says he had a good experience. I suspect that a lot of idle and other issues stem from AFM problems that could be solved via refurbishment. Unlike many other maintenance projects, this one is likely to only have to be done once during a typical Spider ownership period!

(I am not a paid spokesperson. I'm simply puzzled as to why more folks don't seek to refresh their AFMs, especially since it's not that costly.)

[kacperix]

update,
my problem solved by exchange afm to 0280 202 017 bosh (fiat argenta maybe some volvo also (it was description from the auction) cost around 30$