For some years I edited a Ducati motorcycle enthusiast group's website. One section of the site was particularly active. It was entitled "Ducati Technica" and contained both articles and Q&A areas, one of which had a number of internationally respected Ducati mechanics and technical people who responded to queries.
As patterns started to appear in peoples inquiries, interests, experiences and concerns we sometimes made modification to a couple of bikes we called out "test mules." Companies gladly provided products in hope of seeing good things said about this or that modification. And since one of those "mules" was my own bike I personally "benefited" from the arrangement.
"Benefited" is in quotes because it was not that rare for me to personally find this or that modification -- despite being very popular -- to be at best a real 'mixed bag.'
In one review for a one such mod -- the replacement of the stock, 4 lb., flywheel with one that weighed only 9 oz. -- the following was noted in the review:
"If the vast majority of your riding is in a sport setting -- i.e., with the engine fully warmed and contentedly revving in its midrange, with the bike on the open road -- then you will likely love the effects of the lighter flywheel: A quicker revving engine, more accessible power, quicker turn-in and handling, and lower overall motorcycle weight.
If, on the other hand, you often find yourself in slow moving traffic; if you often take short rides where the engine never fully warms up; if chugging and lugging is more your style ("Cruising" anyone?), then a lightened flywheel is likely not for you.
Perusing the forum here I again see a pattern of modification that are spoken of as almost universally better for this model year or that, but since this is a forum and not an article-based site I am not sure if the same pattern of gains and loses is ever addressed.
I, as mentioned elsewhere, am not a mechanic. But I have had a series of fine ones that are well familiar with Spiders and closely related automobiles. Based on their experience, as well as my own with the Ducatis mentioned above, I have limited the technical modifications to my Spider to only the most basic. The removal of some unneeded hardware for instance. -That originally put in place, not it seems for performance reasons, but possibly to pass this or that carefully scripted test. (My car, BTW, even without this hardware always passed even strict Massachusetts pollution testing). Things done have included such things as the removal of the 2nd set of points. Other similar things, but not having to do with mandates, also have been done -- such as the famed "brown wire" fix. But things such as hotter cams, higher-compression pistons, changes in carburetor type, etc., these I have avoided.
The results on this is not hard to fathom. My `77 remains rather sedate. But it has also proven to be quite reliable and relatively trouble free for the nearly 30 years that I have owned her -- something that other's posted experiences suggests is not universally true.
What about you? Have you, or do you plan to, make major modifications on your Spider. If you have, have you found there to be trade offs in reliability and/or daily running?
There is so much year-to-year variety in our cars that it is hard to imagine a single list of preferred mods to be posted and commented on. But the subject sure is interesting! (Well, at least to me.)
-Don
Italian motorcycles. An Italian car. An Italian wife. What more could a man desire?
Wow, about a million posts in here about modifying (or not) your Spider. Personally, I'm a resto-mod guy. I've upgraded lots of stuff, but the focus has been on reliability before speed. Much of the stock stuff when in good working order is just fine. Another consideration is emissions. I live in the Denver area and I still have to get my car emission checked every year, so the fuel injection is stock, as is the exhaust and catalytic convertor, etc.
Kirk
Over the last five years I've modified just about everything I could. Some modifications have made a real difference, either in reliability or performance, while others may or may not have done anything at all.
Sometimes when I think about the money I've spent on my car I wonder why I didn't just buy a 911 when old ones were still cheap..... then I go out and look at my Spider and fall in love all over again.
When I started modifying my car it was all performance oriented, I wanted it to be as fast as it is sexy. What I've come to realize now is that it's actually reliability that I've spent so much of my hard earned money on. My performance mods have added a bit more "fun" to the drive but their real value comes in the form of reliability. The added fun factor is icing on the cake.
I'm the kind of owner who loves working on the car. I love it. There is almost no part of my car that I haven't tinkered on and with and I'll probably never stop.
But, I have also found some things to be a mixed bag as DUCeditor has said. However that mixed bag just fuels the desire to go out and work on my car!
I think DUCeditor hits the nail on the head. Mods really fall into one of three categories: reliability, performance and cosmetic. Granted some cross two of those lines but in general things that increase performance decrease reliability. As I get older I find I want to do more of the reliability type mods or "upgrades" and fewer performance upgrades. Cosmetics are up to each owner and to each his own.
I currently have a 79 2ltr (in a 78 chassis) that came to me with a header, twin DCNA carbs, and a Crane ignition but not running. As far as I was able to make out during the rebuild it had no complementary performance mods (pistons, valves, etc) so the carbs and header were probably minimal contributors to performance and maybe even worse. Part of the problem with mods is people don't understand how various components integrate as a system and only change part of what's needed.
After starting down the hot cams, adjustable cam gears, twin carb, EDIS ignition path I settled on ditching the cams for stock, replacing the twin carbs with a 2 barrel progressive EMPI, going to a 123 stock style distributor and coil, and keeping the header. I did go with 4.5mm domed pistons at full overbore to bump the dismal 1979 flat top compression. Also considered an 1800 head but stuck with the 2 ltr to keep CR in the very streetable range. I think I now have a reliable performer but in all honesty I've only driven around the block a few times so far. Smooth idle, easy start (when the choke isn't stuck full open!, see recent post). I haven't made any hard pull runs yet but I think I have good power across the band. I was NEVER able to achieve any of this with the dual carbs and hot cams. I probably could of come close but I'm sure I'd still be fiddling to get there. I had the same experience with a 70 E-type Jag; played with triple side draft Webers that ran like a Banshee WOT but idlled for crap and was miserable crusing around. The stock twin Stombergs were overall far superior for a driver.
Brad (if you are still looking in?) is absolutely right that the most reliable cars are stock cars well sorted as far as performance mods. He has pointed out correctly that automotive engineers are all about optimizing compromises. They are trying to design a car that will perform the best ON AVERAGE under all normal expected conditions. Almost any performance modification is a departure toward one subset of those conditions and will adversely effect performance under the remaining conditions. In short, race cars are lousy street cars.
Where I depart from the purists (if the shoe fits okay, if not then don't pretend I called you one and get offended) is on reliability modifications. The engineers who designed our cars optimized them for general use using the Technology available to them, with cost as a major factor. Therefore we have lots of areas where we can enhance our cars with no impact on performance while increasing reliability. Brakes, suspension, electrics, cooling all come immediately to mind. All of those areas are or will be modernized to the extent possible on my car for reliability purposes.
Does that mean stock brakes, springs, shocks, alternators, radiators and fans can't all perform their intended function just fine if in good condition? Certainly not, they can and do. I just find that for not much more $ (and sometimes less) I can swap to a much better part that incorporates 40 years of technological progress.
Jeff Klein, Aiken, SC
1980 FI Spider, Veridian with Tan (sold about a year ago), in the market for another project
1989 Spider, sold
2008 Mercedes SL65
2008 S600 Mercedes V12
It takes a steady disposition to resist tweaking the factory setup when you have the engine out for rebuilding. I too succumbed to this temptation, and after a lot of time and money (three new Webers), I have about the same amount of power in my rebuilt 1800 engine as a well-running 2-liter. It has been a great deal of fun getting there, but often frustrating, too. I've said this too many times to count, but before you invest in engine mods, drive a well-tuned version of your existing motor.
The best mod I did to my car was to rewire it with a modern harness. I have zero electrical issues, and don't expect any for my lifetime of the car. I'm also very fond of my new 0.82 fifth gear. These mods could be described as "aftermarket", and there are probably those of you out there that have similarly good things to say about gear-reduction starters, EMPI carbs, etc.
I'm also in favor of "factory" mods; substituting a later 65A alternator for an earlier 45A one, relocating the battery to the trunk ... or backwards, like a 4-2-1 header, cowl vents and so on.
I've modified mine over the past 25 years to suit me.
1)I built a turbo.
2) I've got more comfortable Honda CRX seat. The original seats are horrible due to the fat seat bolsters.
3) Before I turned 40, I could ride around all day with the top down and sweat profusely and the 95+ heat never bothered me. For a few years I avoided driving my Spider on hot days. So I put together an air conditioning system. That way I can drive it to work on very hot days and put the top down in the mornings when it's around 70. I actually drive the car more now than before.
Downside. All turbo parts are custom made one offs. Turbo requires tightening nuts and bolts every now and then.
The A/C makes working on the car more difficult due to space.
Love this topic. Agree on all accounts. Mods I think are personal in taste desire and wallet. We owned a 78 for years, that was stored in the garage and turned into a mouse condo on steroids. Never was a mod done to the car and she ran very well even with the dual points, always started, and other than general maintenance items like brakes, tires, exhaust oil change and battery, I only replaced a ball joint and a clutch. We scrapped that car sadly due to the mice and the bought the current 71 for $1000 purchase price. I thought I would be disappointed with the performance of the 1600 after having an 1800 but I am not in the least. It is no show car but a huge amount of fun. We have restored the interior, new carpet, seat covers, dash and solid mahogany dash panels along with new seat belts and some eastwood floor sound deadening material under the carpet and padding. And of course a new vinyl top. Engine mods, none to speak of other than a valve job to curb the smoke in the exhaust. Still have some blow-by but with 116K miles its manageable. Over the counter changes/upgrades include the gear reduction starter, computronics ignition, 95 amp alternator (for the heated seats) and dual IDFs. The starter upgrade is noticeable in crank speed, The car starts easily if run every other day or so. If more than that she needs to crank a little more. The IDFs are a blast and cruise nicely. I haven't found them a hassle to tune, but I'm not racing them either. I get the rare occasional pop out of one cylinder but otherwise very smooth. We live in a rural area and most of the road speeds are 40 mph ( which everyone ignores) The car revs quickly up to 6K and I can get rubber in two gears (not an everyday occurrence mind you but its there if I want it) Yup it has some rust issues that will have to be dealt with sooner or later, but this IS New England. In the mean time I drive the pants off it when the urge sets in and otherwise just cruise. No upgraded brakes or exhaust, just what came with the car.
I thought about the adjustable cams sprockets and some modified street cams, but don't think I will go there yet, or not at least until after I tear it down for a complete rebuild. I like working on the car, but I really like driving it.
Michael and Deborah Williamson
1971 Spider -Tropie’ - w screaming IDFs
1971 Spider - Vesper -scrapped
1979 Spider - Seraphina - our son's car now sold
1972 Spider - Tortellini- our son's current
I am firmly on the camp of modifying the car to suit your own goals / taste.
We bought our current spider in 2002. In that time it has gone through 12 rounds of "winter project" repairs and upgrades. Here is a rundown of what we have done. The list is long and I am sure I'll forget some things as it was all done piecemeal over the years as time and money allowed. As always, it is my car, done solely for myself and for the pleasure I get from of doing it. Year one of ownership involved body and paint, with more rust found than I originally thought the car had. So for the sake of argument, let's assume you are starting with a running car with a reasonably solid body.
In my experience the first thing to do is get the stock car to the point that it is tuned correctly, runs well, and has had all of the electrical problems are tracked down. When tuned correctly and running right it will be pretty lively, though I would not call it fast.
What I felt the car needed before more power was better handling and braking.
So, the second thing I did was install better brakes - there are a number of "big brake" kit choices available and the changeover is not hard to do. I have seen Wildwood (mine), Honda, and Fiat 500 brakes used, and all are way better than the stock brakes ever were, even on their best day. If I could find the right parts I would like to swap the brake booster for one with more pull to reduce pedal effort (personal choice). A rear sway bar completely changes the handling and with the right shock absorber, wheel size, and tires, a very neutral balance can be achieved. Now you have a car than handles, stops, and goes well.
Next up were reliability and comfort. Comfort items include heated seats, a wind deflector, and a rear cover that closes off the space behind the seats. Now with the top down the cabin is quieter with no wind buffeting and the heated seats extend the driving season. Removable cup holders help on long rides; a pull-out model from a Nissan something-or-other was reconfigured so it can be hung from the glove box when needed and put away when it isn't.
Reliability upgrades include an aluminum radiator that increased coolant capacity by about 1 gallon and a 14" low profile fan switched by an adjustable thermostat. Relays were added for the power windows, head lights, the wipers, and the starter solenoid. A gear reduction starter replaced the old, slow, tired one the car came with (one of my favorite upgrades). Every plug-in connector, fuse holder, and grounding pod has been cleaned, and reassembled with dielectric grease. Ditto for the bulb sockets. Electrical "upgrades" made by the PO were sorted and corrected. The circuit boards for the rear lights have been cleaned and all of the riveted connections tightened and soldered. A larger alternator completed the electrical upgrades and easily powers lights, wipers, heater fan, and seat heaters all at once, while still charging the battery.
This past winter, out came the stock 2L with 92K on it for a rebuild after a head gasket let go between the 3rd and 4th cylinders. Fast and dirty version: Block cleaned, bored, honed, and decked to give a tighter "squish" area at TDC. The intake manifold is ported to match the gasket openings. I am running a 1.8 liter head which has been ported, matched to intake and exhaust gaskets. The chambers are enlarged, polished and CC'd to achieve 10.2:1 static CR with the domed pistons installed and it is running 91 octane without pinging. The valves are stock size, but blueprinted and sitting on seats that have an enlarged throat area (big improvement!) and blended into the bowls. Stock crank and rods, stock bearings. The rotating assembly was balanced. We are lucky to have a great machine shop nearby! A home made windage tray went into the oil pan - I wouldn't bother with that again on another car, but it was fun coming up with something that worked. Since the car isn't raced or run at high rpm much I doubt it is making any difference, other than wondering what would happen if it ever broke loose... It is all bolted together with new gaskets and seals, an MLS head gasket with studs instead of bolts, 40/80 cams, and adjustable cam wheels with the cams timed precisely. The stock Bosch FI and ignition provide gas and spark, with lightened springs in the distributor for a faster advance curve. A new clutch and pressure plate went in, just because it was easy to do at the time. The injectors were sent to be cleaned and flow matched. Finally, everything exhales through the stock 4/2/1 manifold with a 2.25" exhaust. This fall I will replace the catalyst with a resonator.
It all adds up to a car that I can truly say gets better and better every year, and it has taught me a lot along the way. There is no need to fear taking on mods. These cars are dead simple to work on and tune, they benefit from years of accumulated knowledge to draw upon from the forum, vendors, racers, and several excellent books have been written about the twin cam engines we all enjoy. Confidence to attempt major mods comes from knowing that if I really screw up I can always find another 2L and start again as next winters project. Oddly enough, parts availability has also improved better over the years.
There really is no practical reason to do the performance mods, but I can admit to being a horsepower addict. I would like to some day build up a lower compression bottom end for forced induction. Then again the way the cars runs now I am in no hurry to do so.
A stock spider is a joy to drive. Add handling and brakes and it becomes an absolute hoot on back roads, which we have no shortage of nearby. The comfort items make it more enjoyable on longer trips, and now with the added power it is in the "fun" zone from 3500 rpm to 7000 rpm - like driving a newer, faster, better car all over again. At some point I will run out of ideas for "what to do with the Fiat", but so far that day seems pretty far off. Half the fun for me is driving, and the other half is making improvements to it bit by bit.
And remember, Ebay is your friend. Craigslist, too. Searching both will get you the bits and pieces you need without spending a fortune which makes the mods all that much more attainable and attractive to do. Ignoring my investment of time (it's a hobby, right?) my head work set me back $375 for Neway tools, new valves, guides and abrasive supplies. The engine rebuild, including machining and balancing, came in at $1,250. Most other tools needed I already had, including calipers and dial gauges for measuring my work as I dug into the head. I am patient, thrifty (some say cheap!), and willing to hunt down bargains once I know what I am shopping for.
As long as what do with your spider puts a smile on your face when you fire it up for a drive, it is a success. A spider is entertaining to drive bone-stock, very checkable on twisty roads with a few changes to help handling, and a mild "sleeper" with some reasonable changes to the engine.
It is hard to go wrong no matter how you approach it.
I've spent an embarrassing (and unknown) amount on mine... Which is currently in the shop. One of my recent upgrades (adjustable cam gears) caused last years expensive and unnessasary engine rebuild to need to be done again.
Belt guard ring came off because no loktite. Tore into the belt, minor damage to gears themselves... And bent valves, collapsed springs.
Yahoo
Since it's all apart, adding one (1) guy croft cam... Fingers crossed.
Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil, we have decided to turn off the light at the end of the tunnel. We apologize for any inconvenience.
1981 Fiat Spider, all black... "Corvino", italian for the Raven
Sorry to bring back an old post, but I like this one as it shows what different things people do to achieve different goals.
I’m also in the camp of do what you want as it’s your car.
I bought an 82 a few years back for $700 and have spent the past two years getting it running right: rebuilt the AFM, DME, new intake tube, new cap/rotor, new fuel pump, and new fuel tank, new steering linkage.
This year I’m replacing the front CA bushings and ball joints as the bushings are SHOT (car pulls under braking due to CA’s shifting). I’m also replacing the engine wiring harness with one I’ve repaired.
The paint is original (with some minor rust), the top needs to be replaced, and there are a more than a few other things, but I mainly bought this car to drive and have fun in while I SLOWLY renovate my 914.
I’ve always loved the style of the 124’s and driving this thing is great, even with a worn suspension!
I’m also held to see that there are some modifications one can do to these cars and still keep the stock FI. Once the car gets to a good spot where most of the where items are replaced, I’d like to start some mods to get a little more oomph out of it, but would like to maintain the stock FI. These cars are fun and quick stock, but I wouldn’t mind just a little more from it...
Current vehicles:
1982 Fiat 2000
1975 Porsche 914 2.0L (in pieces)
1987 BMW 325e
2002 BMW 325iT
2006 MB E350 Wagon 4Matic
2011 Toyota Tundra SR5
1997 Mazda Miata M-Edition
1984 VW Rabbit GTi
Sounds nice, Zaffer. Got pics? We would love to see 'em!
Lots of members seem to have had difficulties with image hosts. Try imgur.com. I've had great luck with them, so far.
And I'm in the camp of I like it to look original (mostly), but I'll certainly use as much technology as I can in the meantime!
Todd.
1988 Mazda RX-7
1979 Fiat Spider 2000
1978 3/4 ton Chev 4x4 P/U "FRANKENTRUCK"
1976 Camaro
1972 VW Superbeetle
1969 Ford F100
1968 Mustang coupe
Curious to hear more about the Guy Croft cam and how it is working out for you. Which one did you go with?
I have a reground cam set in my car and Croft’s book states that a regrind will never make the same power as a billet cam. Last year on the dyno my car did indeed put out less HP that I had expected. Not blaming the cam, just stating the facts.
But I am curious to hear what you have to say about the GC cam.
I'm still rebuilding my '74 and since it's a lot newer model and was ahead of its time I haven't done that many mods. Some cosmetic, other for safety:
Custom wood dash.
Leather upholstery instead of that awful 70's velour.
Aluminum wheels/ larger tires.
Upgraded fuse panel/ eliminate all the seat belt wiring.
Three point seat belts.
New wood steering wheel to replace the cracked one.
Stainless steel header and exhaust.
Replacing the smog pump timing cover with an older, more attractive cover.
LED headlights.
In comparison to my last build, a '64 TBird, I'd have to write a book to describe all the mods.
