My engine rebuild story and asking for advice (LONG POST!!!)

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ebrown0104
Posts: 92
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:24 pm
Your car is a: 1977 Spider
Location: Jeannette, PA

My engine rebuild story and asking for advice (LONG POST!!!)

Post by ebrown0104 »

The following post contains the long-winded, rambling, and frequently unintelligible story of how I removed the wheezy, leaky, and ultimately perfectly-functioning engine from my car and transformed it into many boxes of parts and a vehicle void of utility. This story will contain tales of stupidity, humor, and the eventual sapping of all fun from this project. So please, join me as I tell my tale... or don't. You really shouldn't. Seriously, just skip to the end where I ask for advice and try to help me regain my sanity.


Every journey begins somewhere, and this one starts with the purchase of my car. I acquired the car in August 2015 after seeing it at the Pittsburgh Vintage Grand Prix. It's a 1977 Spider (California-spec) with 24,000 miles. As you'd expect with an almost 40-year-old car with so few miles, there's been a lot of deferred maintenance. I knew this going into the purchase, but the car has zero rust and very nice original paint and interior, so I decided that I would turn this into a rolling restoration, tackling one large area of the car every winter and enjoying it during the sunny months. Going over the car, I noticed that the suspension parts all looked to be in fairly decent shape, so that could be put off for a little while longer. I also noticed that as I drove the car more and more, the engine was getting oily-er. The exhaust would throw a puff of blue smoke on start-up after sitting overnight. There was a smell of oil burning off the exhaust manifold while sitting at idle. There was the compression test that revealed 105psi in the cylinders and a leak-down test that revealed two cylinders with 25% and two with 65% blow-by. I think that I figured out what my winter project for this off-season would be.

So, knowing I was doing a rebuild on an engine which had a lot of performance potential that was unfortunately corked up by emissions regulations and 1970's quality fuel, I decided to go for a mild-to-moderate performance build. A hot street setup, if you will. I wanted to bump up compression, add some cams, port the head, lighten the flywheel, and just really wake this little Lampredi up. My final plans were as follows:

Auto Ricambi 84.4mm pistons with 4mm domes for a static compression of ~9.8:1
Vick's 40-80/80-40 cams with Allison adjustable gears and Isky springs
Mildly ported head (porting in the bowl areas only; nothing on the runners so velocity stays high) with 43mm/37.5mm oversize valves
Weber 32/36 DFEV carb on stock single-plane intake (came with the car; will eventually be changed to IDF's)
Lightened stock flywheel (~12lbs) using Miller's Mule blueprints
Auto Ricambi aluminum crank pulley
Balanced rotating assembly
Marelliplex ignition
Vick's stainless header and full 2.25" exhaust routed in the same fashion as the original, under the passenger seat.
Removal of all emissions-related equipment

Before I go any farther, I'd like to thank Auto Ricambi, Vick, and Allison's for being great parts suppliers and everything they helped me with. I know I'm preaching to the choir, but I can't recommend them enough. They're all great people to work with.

I started tear down right after Christmas, and everything went smoothly. I took the block, crank, new pistons, rods, flywheel, crank pulley, and head to a local machine shop that comes highly recommended by many people. They did a great job on everything - boring the cylinders, lightening the flywheel, balancing everything, decking the head and block for flatness, porting the head, and fitting the oversize valves. Also, they told me that three of the main caps had excessive side-to-side movement - like 4 to 5 thousandths. They built up the edge on all of the caps, then fitted them to the block tightly, and then align bored the main tunnel. They said it's very rare to have that happen, and basically chalked it up to being built in 1970s Italy. Not sure if anyone else has heard of this issue, but I thought I'd bring it up.

So while the machine shop had my engine, I decided to partially disassemble my trans and re-gasket and -seal everything, along with cleaning out the almost-certainly original tranny fluid. Everything went smooth, and all of the guts looked to be in fine shape. I then installed a Holley 12-426 electric fuel pump in the spare tire well, ran the power wire through the fuel return line, and wired it to work with an oil pressure cutoff switch installed in place of the original oil pressure light switch (I figured that I wouldn't really miss the light since I have an oil pressure gauge also). I cleaned up the engine bay by removing all unnecessary wires (mainly all of the emission-related switch/solenoid wires). I noticed while working in the engine bay, the bottom of the brake master cylinder was wet. So I changed that, and then while bleeding the brakes I noticed that all of the rotors were in varying stages of what I'd call "crap." So I took the calipers off, sandblasted and rebuilt them, and changed the pads, rotors, and added stainless brake lines. So now my engine rebuild was slowly morphing into other areas (remember what I said about deferred maintenance?). Also, the front wheel bearings felt a little bit sandy, so while I had 3/4 of the front torn apart anyway I just replaced the bearings, seals, and nuts. The metal heater lines at the firewall were a little rusty inside, so I removed them to sandblast and noticed the bottom of the heater valve had some green fuzz on it. Instead of waiting for it to blow boiling fluid all over my wife's legs, I decided to change it while I was there and also remove the heater core and flush it out. Everything was working out well... more expensive than I had planned, but that's how it goes. It was about this time I got my engine back from the machine shop.

OK, so here's where the story starts getting interesting. I get the crank in and while installing the pistons I break two connecting rod bolts. Shortly afterwards, I find out that the service manual lists the incorrect torque. It's too bad that you have to find this out after breaking a few $17 bolts, but that's what happens. So, being annoyed up to this point and probably not in the best state of mind for delicate work, I get three of the pistons installed and I'm working on the final one. I'm sliding the piston down in the ring compressor and, unbeknownst to me, the center ring pops out between the compressor and the top of the block. So I'm pushing the hell out of this piston and it's not going in. Instead of just taking everything apart and restarting, I decide to go all caveman and grab a rubber mallet. You see where this is going, huh? Yeah, I went there. I tried persuading the piston into the cylinder via persuasion device, and not surprisingly it didn't work. It didn't work at all. I ended up breaking the center ring into about 8 pieces, and also succeeded in crushing the ring land between the top and center ring into the space previously occupied by the top ring. Luckily I didn't mess up the block at all, but that's now the least of my worries.

Now I'm screwed. I called Csaba at AR and asked about getting a single piston, and he said that's probably not going to happen. And just to add the cherry on top, those pistons are on back order for an indefinite amount of time, so even buying another complete set is now looking grim. Like I said, Csaba was extremely helpful through the whole process, but even he can't make things appear out of thin air. So I start scouring the web for comparable replacements, and they are tough to come by. Everyone sells the 8.9:1 flat-top pistons, but the 4mm dome ones are difficult to track down. I did find another Texas-based Fiat parts reseller (whose name I won't name right now because I haven't been totally boned by them yet) who claims to have a set of 84.4mm pistons with a 4mm dome in stock. Score! I ordered up a set and emailed Csaba to let him know I think I found a comparable replacement. He sends back that said company occasionally buys these exact pistons from AR, so there's even a good chance I can leave the three previously installed slugs in place and just add the final one to complete the set.

The piston set arrived via FedEx man (who is probably getting tired of making trips to my house every third day) and I tear open the box like a kid on Christmas. But, like the kid on Christmas who opens their gift only to find a dead guinea pig, my joy turned to terror. Not only were these pistons not the same as a comparable AR set, but they weren't even dome pistons. They were flat-tops that I just paid approximately twice as much as anyone else sells them for. I check the invoice, and the part number and description is correct. So I call up establishment, hoping that maybe the wrong pistons were shipped and that they would have the right ones sent out right away. The phone transcript went like this, almost verbatim:

"Hi, I just ordered a set of your dome pistons and I received a set of flat-tops in the box. i was j-"
"Yeah, we don't have the dome ones, they're on back order right now. But you don't want those ones anyway, the flat-tops are better."
"But I-"
"If you go with the dome pistons you'll have to use aviation fuel because it'll ping really bad if not. You'll make more power with the flat-top pistons because of that. You'll have to advance the timing too much with the dome ones to keep it from pinging."
"I'm not really sure-"
"... 25 years ago some guys got arrested breaking into an airport to steal fuel because they had too high compression."
"OK, but I really wanted the dome pistons that were on the website when I ordered them. Can I return them? They're not what I thought I was ordering."
"Yeah, think about it for a few minutes, I have another customer on hold, just call back and let me know if you still want to return them."
"OK?"

As you can imagine, I called back almost immediately and definitely stated that "yes, I don't want these." This was followed by a couple more lines about how I should really just use those pitons instead, and that I can send them back. Not even getting into everything that was technically incorrect in the conversation, I just felt like they knew they screwed me hard on my order and were backpedaling to convince me to use something I didn't want.

So here's where I'm at. I have 3/4 of my engine together and can't go any farther. Parts are littering my garage and basement. The hood has taken up residence on my spare couch. As someone who is somewhat of a neat freak, having things scattered about is really messing with my brain.

This is the part where I ask for the advice of all you Fiat experts out there. Here it goes: Is there anywhere to acquire a set of 84.4mm pistons with a 4mm dome to fit into my 1800cc engine? Do you or anyone you know just have a spare set (or hell, just one) sitting around waiting to be put to good use? Because if not, I have some interesting choices to make. I can get a set of forged pistons custom-made, but they're going to be expensive and take 3-4 weeks to receive. I can try to have my broken piston repaired, but I'm 99% sure that this isn't even possible to have done. This brings me to the easiest option, which is to go with a set of flat-top 8.9:1 pistons. But, I feel like I'd be wasting the rest of my modifications going with such a mild bump in compression. Is there going to be any discernible difference in power output between a set of 8.9:1 pistons and a set of 9.8:1 pistons? Should I even be worried about it? I understand it will definitely have less power, but is it going to be 5 horsepower or 15? I'd be OK with 5, but giving up 15 is a big loss for literally no reason.

So as always, thanks for taking the time to help...

and really, if you read that whole thing there's probably something wrong with you. Get that checked out :)
So Cal Mark

Re: My engine rebuild story and asking for advice (LONG POST!!!)

Post by So Cal Mark »

interesting story, and let me limit your options a little bit. Those 40/80 cams won't work very well with stock compression. You can mitigate the lack of low end some with the adjustable cam gears, but it won't be ideal
klweimer
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Location: Arvada, Colorado

Re: My engine rebuild story and asking for advice (LONG POST!!!)

Post by klweimer »

I suppose no chance of having a machinist clean up the ring lands on your damaged piston? Beyond that, you might contact Matthews Foreign Car Parts in Birmingham Alabama. It's a large salvage yard specializing in such things. I've purchased a few items from them and they seem to have lots of stuff. I assume you've been looking on Ebay as well?
Kirk
wizard124
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Re: My engine rebuild story and asking for advice (LONG POST!!!)

Post by wizard124 »

Don't settle for less. Stay your course.
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70spider
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Re: My engine rebuild story and asking for advice (LONG POST!!!)

Post by 70spider »

and really, if you read that whole thing there's probably something wrong with you. Get that checked out :)
nothing better to do on a Saturday morning, just enjoying a cup of joe. I too am in somewhat of a pickle where I messed up my crank by improperly storing it. As for the pistons have your tried Vicks: http://www.vickauto.com/newstore/index. ... ts_id=2998
I know there cast and not forged, probably the reason for the low price. I am no expert so I do not know if there is a performance/durability difference between cast and forged.
Good luck.
1970 Fiat Spider 124 Sport aka "Pesto"
2002 Mazda Protege5
2013 Buddy 170i
zachmac
Posts: 1278
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Your car is a: 1978 Spider [1979 2 ltr engine]
Location: Aiken, SC

Re: My engine rebuild story and asking for advice (LONG POST!!!)

Post by zachmac »

First I did read your whole post and I know why. To quote Slick Willy, "I feel your pain." I'm in the throws of a similar saga having made the decision to pull the engine and rebuild since it was an effective smoke screen producer but not much else. Scope creep lead to a complete rebuild of the front suspension and brakes, lots of wire removal and repair, gutting the entire interior, stripping, cleaning and repainting the underside and tranny tunnel, rebuilding the drive shaft, resealing the transmission, etc. etc. etc.

I am fortunate to be back to the running engine in the car but still far from ready for a drive and I've made lots of mistakes and boneheades moves along the way. Just a short list includes:

1) Installing the cross member 180 out and not realizing it until the suspension was all back on and I was lowering the engine into the bay. :oops:
2) stripping one of the exhaust cam tower stud holes for the valve cover thumbscrew studs, again after the engine was assembled and back in the car :oops:
3) rebuilding and installing the steering box only to discover AFTER the engine was back in that the lower seal still leaks AND I had installed the bolts backwards, comically limiting the pitman arm travel to 1 1/4 turns lock to lock :oops:
4) stripped a rear wheel stud (yet to be fixed) :oops:
5) put the oil rings on upside down so had to take all the pistons back out and do it over (thankfully realized this while doing #4 piston) :oops:

etc., etc. etc.

In short, what I have learned the hard way is taking ones time and walking away when you aren't in the right frame of mind is important. Very few of us use these cars as daily drivers and they are supposed to be fun. If you work on them when you don't want to or are frustrated bad stuff usually happens. In fact, I am typing this partially as a way to procrastinate going out to the garage and tackling the steering box issue because I just don't feel like it right now. It's always hard to not get it back to driving, since that is the goal. But you have to approach working on it as a goal in itself.

As for your current issue (I used the same pistons but in 84.8 over bore BTW) I think you have to wait until AR can stock a replacement (have they given you an ETA?). Flat tops at this point make a lot of your effort moot and as Mark points out won't work well with your cams anyway.

The alternative is the 8 mm domes from Vicks but that is another whole ball of wax as now you'll be in the gas issue CR range the charlatan / vendor in Texas was referring to AND you'll need to be very careful about piston to valve clearance with the big valves and be limited on the usability of the adjustable cams.

IF AR says it is going to be a long wait, a final alternative would be to bore to the next size up IF they have the 4 mm domes in stock in the next oversize? Csaba pointed out to me when I was choosing that going to full overbore is not a bad idea unless you think you are going to drive it another 200k miles and do it again? It gives you a clean straight bore and maximizes displacement.

There, your turn to read along post.

70 Spider: BTW, Vicks is also sold out on the 84.4 4 mm domes. If you put them in the cart and go to check out it tells you that. :(
Jeff Klein, Aiken, SC
1980 FI Spider, Veridian with Tan (sold about a year ago), in the market for another project
1989 Spider, sold
2008 Mercedes SL65
2008 S600 Mercedes V12
baltobernie
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Re: My engine rebuild story and asking for advice (LONG POST!!!)

Post by baltobernie »

Sorry to hear of your misfortune; I hope you can get your car together quickly.

I think you have made the classic mistake many (including me) have made; buying engine parts from different suppliers and expecting them to work together.

I have Vick's ("Persan") domed pistons in my 1800, and I had to replace two head gaskets, ultimately using Mark's 0.080 multi-layer version, with no problems to date. His stud kit may have helped, too. Perhaps you should stick with the flat top design, which many enthusiasts say is a better design anyway. CR boost is not all that beneficial to the Fiat TC, in my limited experience.

+1 on the 80/40 cams, but since you already own them, try using only the performance intake, keeping the stock exhaust.

For all you others contemplating a rebuild, have the machine shop assemble the short block. They do this for a living.
zachmac
Posts: 1278
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Re: My engine rebuild story and asking for advice (LONG POST!!!)

Post by zachmac »

baltobernie wrote:For all you others contemplating a rebuild, have the machine shop assemble the short block. They do this for a living.
What, and miss out on all the "fun" we've been describing here? :D
Jeff Klein, Aiken, SC
1980 FI Spider, Veridian with Tan (sold about a year ago), in the market for another project
1989 Spider, sold
2008 Mercedes SL65
2008 S600 Mercedes V12
djape1977
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Location: Belgrade, Serbia, eastern Europe

Re: My engine rebuild story and asking for advice (LONG POST!!!)

Post by djape1977 »

I have several sets of NOS piastons in various dome heights and oversizes. 150-300$ per set.
P.M. me if you're interested
ebrown0104
Posts: 92
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Location: Jeannette, PA

Re: My engine rebuild story and asking for advice (LONG POST!!!)

Post by ebrown0104 »

Thanks everyone for the replies and sharing similar stories. It's makes me feel better that in not alone in my frustration.

I had thought about having the damaged piston repaired, but even if I could get it done its something that I'd always worry about failing. And I'd rather not do another rebuild on the engine.

So, on a somewhat good note, I think I found a set of replacements. They're on Mr Fiat, and they're $600 for a set, but they are a suitable replacement for the AR set: http://m.mrfiat.com/fiat-124-spider-180 ... -84-4.html. Anybody ever have any problems with Mr Fiat? If I can get the engine back together for next weekend, I'll bite the bullet and pay up.

As usual, thanks again for the info!
djape1977
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Re: My engine rebuild story and asking for advice (LONG POST!!!)

Post by djape1977 »

84.4 is second oversize, first would be 84.2
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joelittel
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Re: My engine rebuild story and asking for advice (LONG POST!!!)

Post by joelittel »

Sorry to hear most of this..... but seriously...... ebrown0104 if you and I were friends outside the forum and you told me this same story I would tease you relentlessly for at least one night (while we were at the pub).

After that I'd stop and help you fix what I could.

The reason behind the friendly elbowing being that you HAD TO HAVE gone all "David" Bruce Banner (you wouldn't like me when I'm angry) to F up that piston.

Please take this as friendly teasing. As in, I'd buy the next beer if this were a face to face.

On a serious note, I have always wondered why no one ever talks about Mr. FIAT as a vendor. In the 5+ years I've owned my car I don't recall Mr. FIAT coming up on the forum at all.
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RRoller123
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Re: My engine rebuild story and asking for advice (LONG POST!!!)

Post by RRoller123 »

Higher prices maybe?
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zachmac
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Re: My engine rebuild story and asking for advice (LONG POST!!!)

Post by zachmac »

RRoller123 wrote:Higher prices maybe?
Higher prices definitely! Vedor of last resort for that reason.
Jeff Klein, Aiken, SC
1980 FI Spider, Veridian with Tan (sold about a year ago), in the market for another project
1989 Spider, sold
2008 Mercedes SL65
2008 S600 Mercedes V12
DieselSpider
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Re: My engine rebuild story and asking for advice (LONG POST!!!)

Post by DieselSpider »

zachmac wrote:
RRoller123 wrote:Higher prices maybe?
Higher prices definitely! Vedor of last resort for that reason.
Have they lowered their prices to just high?
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