first time checking timing....really not sure what to do

[micbrody]

It's "time" to check my timing.

1981 FI 2000

Not sure how to start. I REALLY don't want to remove timing belt cover....... The cam wheels ? (top wheels to left and right of temp T) have red marks on them when looking from the coil part of engine cavity. Also, a hole in cam wheels. There is a "raised metal notch" on the engine where to cam wheel attaches, along with a painted red line about an inch to the right of the metal notch.

I have a timing light. how do I start?

[RRoller123]

There is Ignition timing, and then there is Cam or Valve timing, and they are separate things.

With a timing light, you can easily check and set the ignition timing:

Put the timing light pickup lead over spark plug wire #4, (not #1)

With engine idling at correct speed, point light at the crankshaft pulley and you should see a mark line up somewhere around one of the pointers. There is a notch in the pulley that you can feel even if the pulley is old and corroded, etc. It helps tremendously to put some white paint or "white-out" on this notch, then you can usually see it clearly in normal daylight. The notch is used in aligning top dead center when one does the valve or cam timing as well, but that is a different discussion.

Loosen the distributor hold down nut and rotate the distributor slightly and you will see the white mark move in one direction or another depending upon which way you rotate the distributor. Make small rotations only, until you get the notch to line up with the 10 degree pointer. Be very careful not to let loose clothing, etc get caught in the belts, etc.

This is a picture of the mark at the ZERO degree pointer, the next one down is 5 degrees, and the second one down is the 10 degree one that you want: (sorry pic is a little blurry)

[micbrody]

Where do I look to see this crank shaft pulley markers. The timing belt cover has three marks; Do I use the marks on cover? or is there another place?

[RRoller123]

Post a picture of what you have, so we can clear up the confusion. There should be a metal piece with a 3-point pointer bolted on the block down near the crankshaft pulley on the passenger's side, just like in the picture I posted. (Although the pic I posted does have the front timing belt cover removed). The crankshaft pulley notch can be found by feel and then marked in white, so that part should be no problem.

Pete

[micbrody]

Not sure how to post a picture. But on far lower front of timing belt cover there are three marks, similar to the metal one in picture. On the far lower left pulley/wheel that has belt to alternator, there is a notch with a painted red mark.

(How do I post a photo?)

[micbrody]

I went ahead and used marks on timing cover. With timing light, mark was advanced a lot (guesstimating at least 20. Deg) .
I had to remove distributor to put new vacuum advance. When I re-installed , I rotated motor to TDC based on holes in cam wheels and metal protuberance (raised notch) on engine block. Luckily the holes lined up at same time , which I interpreted as good, thus not needing to adjust or re-install timing belt.
After installing vacuum advance , I reinstalled distributor making sure rotor arm was pointing to number 4 point (notch on plastic rotor on opposite side lined up with notch on metal housing of distributor.
I then started engine. It started right away, and timing light showed it was close to 10 deg advance. After engine went through two fan cycles, I went through procedure to adjust idle. I then fine tuned timing by rotating distributor ; and then locked down.
Car now starts great. Not sure I notice a difference in acceleration; but very happy with results.....and I didn't screw it up to require outside help. I think PO had not mounted distributor exactly pointing at number 4.
RRoller, thanks for your help!

[RRoller123]

That is excellent! We love it when a plan comes together. Here is how you post pictures:

Here is a thread on how to post pictures directly to the forum:

http://www.fiatspider.com/f15/viewtopic ... 13&t=32169

And here is another picture-posting thread:

http://www.fiatspider.com/f15/viewtopic ... 12&t=23084

This short instruction covers how to resize pictures so that they don’t get cut off at the right side:

http://www.fiatspider.com/f15/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=30441

And here is a link to a map of Spider owner’s locations. Many forum members have listed their locations.

https://www.zeemaps.com/map?group=191825


Pete

[micbrody]

Well, I thought everything was perfect..............but this morning, again a difficult start.
When warmed up, not a problem restarting.
I re-visited the AFM as temperature seemed to play a roll. I removed. It looked to move appropriately based on temperature. (it was hot, and orifice looked closed/ when it rested and came to room temperature, it had a small triangular opening. But I decided to give it a good cleaning. (I had done this last year). I sprayed a bunch of carb cleaner; I then washed it with dishwashing soap and water. Let it dry. Tested it under hot water and then in freezer. All seemed fine.
While I was testing it, I checked on the throttle position sensor. With ohm meter, it seemed to check out (continuity between 2 and 18 at rest).........I repeated test a few times. One of the times it did not "close"...but when I moved throttle spring a tad, it closed; and then opened with normal throttle movement. I decided to check the switch out. I removed it. It tested reliably; however, one of the mounting screws might not have been tight to throttle body, so ?maybe? it was able to move. In any event, I remounted and checked with ohm meter. Everything seemed to electrically be appropriate with throttle plate movement.
I then reinstalled AAV. Started car.......and then strange things started to happen.
Car immediately started but idle immediately went to 1600 (idle was 900). I let car warm up. After 5 minutes, I noticed engine was oscillating every 3 seconds between 1600 and 1000ish. (very disturbing). I turned down throttle bypass air idle screw to fully seated (it was 3/4 turn out); but idle only went down to 1000-1100. Engine was very rock steady at this setting. I then went to adjust throttle body (gas pedal) idle lock screw. I unscrewed it to where it wasn't touching the throttle body stop; yet, idle remained at 1000-1100.
I then clamped the air hose from AAV to engine to see if that would slow down idle(maybe I damaged AAV to keep it open during cleaning ); but that did not change idle.

So in conclusion:
1) "maybe" AFM was intermittently getting stuck only partially open when cold???? Hopefully cleaning it would help
2) "maybe" throttle position sensor was also mounted in a way that the 2-18 pin was not alway in continuity?
3) I set timing with previous "bad setting(s)"; and now unable to adjust idle below 1000 until I get timing light out and loosen distributor

As a bonus observation, the vacuum advance does not seem to be moving on acceleration........has diaphragm failed after one hour???

I did take car for a ride and it seemed fine.
I am done tonight. Tomorrow I will see if car starts cold; and then I will check timing..............

[joelittel]

Micbrody, I'm not too far North of you and have a similar car. You should consider bringing it to the Chicago Flu tech day at AutoSprint on April 2nd.

I'm sure someone there will be able to help you tune it in.

[micbrody]

Where or what is Autosprint?

[micbrody]

(Sorry that my posts are "wordy". My background was heavily didactic and evidence based. Just want to logically understand and fix; instead of shotgun "replace this and that ")

This morning I went to start car cold. It immediately started. However , it immediately went and remained in the 1100 idle speed .
I searched forum and found one person who accidently mounted TPS in a way that held throttle plate from going all the way closed. So at start, the throttle plate allowed more air and it immediately started.
I investigated and found that was the problem. I started car ; reset the idle (around 900), and checked TPS. All good.
I went to start car and it immediately started (however it was already warm. ) I again noticed car starting at an idle of 500-600, but after a minute it rose to 900 and remained stable. Car drove great.
I will wait till car cold again, but I am thinking that car needs more air during ignition, hence the no start when cold; and the slow idle for 30-60 seconds when car is started hot.
The only question: if the engine was up to temperature ; and my adjusting of TPS at end of idle just took a few minutes, the AAV should be hot enough to be closed ; maybe the AAV needs to be calibrated to be more open when cold ; and more open when hot but not electrified. That would explain difficult start when engine cold; and easier start but lower idle when hot

[124JOE]

Where or what is Autosprint?

autosprint is a import shop in chicago geovani logan runs it

[micbrody]

Tried to start car this morning. Did not start, again. I removed AAV. The following is photo of opening at 58 deg F:

at 58 deg F:

I then adjusted "shutter" by loosening bolt; push more open with small screw driver; and then retightening. I then attempted to start car. This time I could hear ignition of cylinders but would not run. My interpretation: Too lean (too much air; opening too big

Too much adjustment at 58 deg F:

I then adjusted opening in between those two photos. Unfortunately I forgot to take photo. If you look at second photo, I adjusted by closing to where the "extra sliver of daylight at far right of opening" was just absent. I was left with a triangle opening; slightly larger than original. Temp still measured 58deg F. Probably about 10 minutes in between start attempts. This time car started immediately. I let it warm up. Final idle unchanged from yesterday's adjustment.

It's amazing how small a difference in opening could make such a huge difference. The ultimate test will be tomorrow after car sitting for 12 hours. Only potential variable is during my failed starting attempts, some fuel injected into cylinder intakes.