Made More Like The Classic...
- Redline
- Posts: 631
- Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2009 4:34 pm
- Your car is a: formerly a 1971 Fiat 124 BC Coupe
- Location: Switzerland
Re: Made More Like The Classic...
Those Photoshops are pure Frankenspider. I don't see a need to integrate old elements into the new, but I do think someone with a stronger design vision needed to take the reins. I have the impression that Fiat suffers from the too-many-cooks problem, probably being pulled by Fiat, Chrysler and Mazda influences. The point above is valid; if they had wanted to design something truly unique and beautiful, they should have used their own platform, or at least modified the hard points of the MX-5 to get something closer to what they wanted. The hard points dictated proportions that would not work with some of their design goals (ape as many classic 124 features as possible). And that is why it is an awkward design, because they tried to compress and distort the classic 124 onto the MX-5 base, with a committee of designers worked on it. It's a feeling I have for many designs these days. Nobody is allowed to take a strong leading role on a design, or if they are, maybe it's watered down by "constructive input" from people who should have no say. It's like one person had the job to integrate the hood bumps from the old car, someone else was told to get the swallow tail in there, someone else had to bring in the little lift by the door handle. Because each only had one job, they wanted to be sure they shone, so they overdid it. The hood, for example. Leaving aside that the motor underneath looks like a Dyson vacuum cleaner, with no visual clue of being a twin cam, why did the designer feel the need to surround the bumps with recessed creases? This immediately gives everyone that creepy Crossfire feel (that and the oversized multi-spoke wheels, in relation to tire diameter). The swallow-tail guy managed that little effect, but had no idea why it worked when Tjaarda penned it, because Tjaarda was working with a completely different proportion of tail-to-body. So the swallow-tail guy got confused and added in comfortable elements from other current short deck cabriolets. Headlight guy didn't do so poorly, I think. I know some of you want chrome-ringed 7" round Carellos, but I don't think it works on a modern car. The headlights themselves aren't so bad. But headlight guy didn't talk to turn signal guy, because if he had they would have realised they could have maybe integrated them and saved one big disturbing feature and really cleaned up the front end. I don't think the headlight shape is what's throwing it off, it's the overall busyness of the front end. Nobody talked to poor foglight guy. Foglight guy is anyway the design world loser, or maybe the mischievous spirit of design world, because he keeps adding lousy little spot lamps in the exact same position, with the exact same faux-grille surround, on every damn car he can find. They don't actually work, they're only there to do that stupid "I turn on when you go around a corner" trick that gets the police to pull you over. That wasn't enough. Grille guy nearly nailed it with a decent reference to the old car, without being too derivative. His upper grille isn't that bad, given pedestrian safety regulation constraints. But then grille guy forgot that he was designing a light, beautiful Italian roadster. He thought he was designing for Fast & Furious, and maybe he had a late night drink with BMW/MINI's grille guy, or maybe he just sees double, because then that extra lower grille showed up, nearly more prominent than the upper one. Door handle kickup guy, well, he just framed out his own 6"x6" and called it a day. And someone had to give the poor guy who hasn't had any work since the 90s a job, so he was allowed to add those awful plastic sill extensions. Too bad he hasn't worked since the 90s, because that's where his ideas are stuck.
It's not a disaster, but it's a committee design and it could have been a lot better.
Even Fiat's sweet little Barchetta 20 years ago was a much better interpretation of a modern roadster. It reminded you of an 850 without beating you over the head. It had some of the nicest door handles around (and a decent intelligence test at the same time), without being clones of a late-60s 850. It had a face, in the same way the 850 did, but it didn't try to stretch the 850 around a Punto chassis. Finally, you popped the wonderful metal cover for the top and, if you knew your Fiat history, you immediately thought "850". But it wasn't a modern-retro 850. It was just a pleasant modern design that made a few subtle winks in the direction of the 850.
Sigh.
I went and took a long look at my 124 Coupe. It's not the most beautiful design of its era, but it has elegant lines and is a "less is more" design. There are a few standout aspects, but they are integrated into the whole. One person obviously penned the whole thing and signed off on it, just like the classic Spider. This is why we like cars of that era. It's not the details, it's the sum. Concentrate too much on the details, and the sum is zero.
It's not a disaster, but it's a committee design and it could have been a lot better.
Even Fiat's sweet little Barchetta 20 years ago was a much better interpretation of a modern roadster. It reminded you of an 850 without beating you over the head. It had some of the nicest door handles around (and a decent intelligence test at the same time), without being clones of a late-60s 850. It had a face, in the same way the 850 did, but it didn't try to stretch the 850 around a Punto chassis. Finally, you popped the wonderful metal cover for the top and, if you knew your Fiat history, you immediately thought "850". But it wasn't a modern-retro 850. It was just a pleasant modern design that made a few subtle winks in the direction of the 850.
Sigh.
I went and took a long look at my 124 Coupe. It's not the most beautiful design of its era, but it has elegant lines and is a "less is more" design. There are a few standout aspects, but they are integrated into the whole. One person obviously penned the whole thing and signed off on it, just like the classic Spider. This is why we like cars of that era. It's not the details, it's the sum. Concentrate too much on the details, and the sum is zero.
http://www.124bc.com
La Dolce Vita: Joy and frustration at the speed of smoke
La Dolce Vita: Joy and frustration at the speed of smoke
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- Posts: 100
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- Your car is a: 1978 Fiat Spider
- Location: Ottawa, ON
Re: Made More Like The Classic...
Quite a good summary, regardless of it it's close to the truth or not, it's how it came out. Too bad really ... I wanted to love the new spider, but alas, I don't. I don't hate it, and I bet it will be very successful since it's actually a "better" Miata (and that's already really good!), but it's not for me. And stupid decisions like "oh, you want the nice brown leather? Ok, here's your autotragic gearbox. Deal with it" make it even less desirable.
8legs Racing - BMW Parts and Performance
- 1978 Fiat Spider (plus 73 and 74 parts cars)
- 2008 BMW M3
- 2003 BMW X5 4.4
- 2000 BMW 330i race car
- 1978 Fiat Spider (plus 73 and 74 parts cars)
- 2008 BMW M3
- 2003 BMW X5 4.4
- 2000 BMW 330i race car
Re: Made More Like The Classic...
All night drawing only to be told Frankenspider (the blades significantly improves the air vents)
I think the images of ScotcH are worthy of being published in a trade magazine.
I don't forget the genesis. Initially it had to be an Alfa Romeo spider. Then, in a hurry, they changed the project and became a study of spiders FIAT. Haste is a bad counselor.
I quite agree. The Centro Stile Fiat has never shone for brilliance since the time of 124. The real big car drew the Bertone, Zagato, Giugiaro, Turing, ... and the Great Pininfarina. Some of these companies have been acqistate by the Germans; and, also for this, the results are good. Even the front lights, as seen from the comparison is not so decisive; The design echoes the line of the front and complement each other very well. Although personally I would have preferred a study of the round lights. The antenna stuck or fin on the rear trunk, the humps on the hood of a retro design give a signal bungled ... Even the first BMW Z2 I did not like ... The work done then I think it is superb. I wish to follow the same path in FIAT.
Anyway, overall, I find it enjoyable.
I think the images of ScotcH are worthy of being published in a trade magazine.
I don't forget the genesis. Initially it had to be an Alfa Romeo spider. Then, in a hurry, they changed the project and became a study of spiders FIAT. Haste is a bad counselor.
I quite agree. The Centro Stile Fiat has never shone for brilliance since the time of 124. The real big car drew the Bertone, Zagato, Giugiaro, Turing, ... and the Great Pininfarina. Some of these companies have been acqistate by the Germans; and, also for this, the results are good. Even the front lights, as seen from the comparison is not so decisive; The design echoes the line of the front and complement each other very well. Although personally I would have preferred a study of the round lights. The antenna stuck or fin on the rear trunk, the humps on the hood of a retro design give a signal bungled ... Even the first BMW Z2 I did not like ... The work done then I think it is superb. I wish to follow the same path in FIAT.
Anyway, overall, I find it enjoyable.
Last edited by clbrenta on Sun Nov 22, 2015 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- DUCeditor
- Posts: 490
- Joined: Sun May 23, 2010 7:36 am
- Your car is a: 1977 FIAT 124 Sport Spider
- Location: Monadnock Area, New Hampshire USA
- Contact:
Re: Made More Like The Classic...
Welcome to the joys of the web.clbrenta wrote:All night drawing only to be told Frankenspider
Put your front on my rear extension treatment as seen on the first post in thread and the exterior is done. Add a classic-style dash and IMO the entire job is complete.
-don
Italian motorcycles. An Italian car. An Italian wife. What more could a man desire?
Re: Made More Like The Classic...
Hi don,
and good Sunday.
Ps:I can not view your website
and good Sunday.
Ps:I can not view your website
- DUCeditor
- Posts: 490
- Joined: Sun May 23, 2010 7:36 am
- Your car is a: 1977 FIAT 124 Sport Spider
- Location: Monadnock Area, New Hampshire USA
- Contact:
Re: Made More Like The Classic...
clbrenta wrote:Hi don,
and good Sunday.
Ps:I can not view your website
Ooops! Sorry!
In fact the site stopped being active quite some time ago. (I'll need to update my forum info)
Much of it was reposted here: http://duc-bz.github.io/ by and for readers who wanted the information to remain available.
Thanks for the heads up!
-Don
Italian motorcycles. An Italian car. An Italian wife. What more could a man desire?
- Redline
- Posts: 631
- Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2009 4:34 pm
- Your car is a: formerly a 1971 Fiat 124 BC Coupe
- Location: Switzerland
Re: Made More Like The Classic...
Oh, it wasn't a comment on your drawing talents, just that piecing together parts of the old and new isn't so different from Frankenstein's approach.clbrenta wrote:All night drawing only to be told Frankenspider
http://www.124bc.com
La Dolce Vita: Joy and frustration at the speed of smoke
La Dolce Vita: Joy and frustration at the speed of smoke
Re: Made More Like The Classic...
I find the work of Scotch a very interesting exercise.
So we could say that the two humps on the engine hood of the new 124 are in Frankenspiderdesignstyle!
So we could say that the two humps on the engine hood of the new 124 are in Frankenspiderdesignstyle!
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- Posts: 100
- Joined: Sat Jun 06, 2009 12:43 pm
- Your car is a: 1978 Fiat Spider
- Location: Ottawa, ON
Re: Made More Like The Classic...
It was fun to whip up ... I really like the "classic" looking roadsters like the BMW 507, z3, z8, 124, alpha, Ferrari GTS, etc. New z4 and Miata, while certainly great cars, just don't have those classic looks, and I realize that time marches on. I just wanted to see how the new car looked with the one classic feature that really brings is back to the classic look ... the round headlights. That one simple change, and the car instantly looked great, so I shared it.clbrenta wrote:I find the work of Scotch a very interesting exercise.
So we could say that the two humps on the engine hood of the new 124 are in Frankenspiderdesignstyle!
8legs Racing - BMW Parts and Performance
- 1978 Fiat Spider (plus 73 and 74 parts cars)
- 2008 BMW M3
- 2003 BMW X5 4.4
- 2000 BMW 330i race car
- 1978 Fiat Spider (plus 73 and 74 parts cars)
- 2008 BMW M3
- 2003 BMW X5 4.4
- 2000 BMW 330i race car
Re: Made More Like The Classic...
Hi ScotcH,
What about your job I liked, it is that the round headlights, reinforce other similarities with the classic 124.
I believe, and hope, that in a few years, if reviewed by a top designer, is a car that will give great emotions.It has the potential.
What about your job I liked, it is that the round headlights, reinforce other similarities with the classic 124.
I believe, and hope, that in a few years, if reviewed by a top designer, is a car that will give great emotions.It has the potential.
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- Posts: 1814
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- Your car is a: 82 Fiat Spider 2000 CSO
- Location: San Antonio
Re: Made More Like The Classic...
I like the round headlights recessed with the angles like the original. I do think that would have made a huge difference in the retro presentation. I like the retro bumper but I suspect it will not open it up to as wide of a market. Only those that know he details of a classic spider would be drawn to that. For the average consumer they would not understand a retro bumper.
Buon giro a tutti! - enjoy the ride!
82 Fiat Spider 2000
03 BMW M3
07 Chevy Suburban
82 Fiat Spider 2000
03 BMW M3
07 Chevy Suburban
- Redline
- Posts: 631
- Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2009 4:34 pm
- Your car is a: formerly a 1971 Fiat 124 BC Coupe
- Location: Switzerland
Re: Made More Like The Classic...
A retro bumper would be illegal in North America at least.
This older "concept" had better proportions than the MX-5's hard points:
Mind you, it was just a Photoshop of an Alfa concept from Pininfarina, I believe.
This older "concept" had better proportions than the MX-5's hard points:
Mind you, it was just a Photoshop of an Alfa concept from Pininfarina, I believe.
http://www.124bc.com
La Dolce Vita: Joy and frustration at the speed of smoke
La Dolce Vita: Joy and frustration at the speed of smoke
Re: Made More Like The Classic...
For me one of the best render. However, in Italy he would say, "it isn't meat and not fish!" (not classic, not modern!).Redline wrote:This older "concept" had better proportions than the MX-5's hard points:
This, however, is a render that I like!
Apart from the headlights naturally!!
Last edited by clbrenta on Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Made More Like The Classic...
Redline wrote:
Mind you, it was just a Photoshop of an Alfa concept from Pininfarina, I believe.
Alfa concept from Pininfarina - 2010.
It is read "DUETTOTTANTA"
Mind you, it was just a Photoshop of an Alfa concept from Pininfarina, I believe.
Alfa concept from Pininfarina - 2010.
It is read "DUETTOTTANTA"