Hi to all experts !
Bought this '77 Spider a few months back. Running well, overall good condition. Some esthetic work required (dash / wood)
Now since the car was imported from USA (to Belgium) some 20 years ago (I believe), I would like to know the engine "status" with regards to "smog" and "emission reduction" equipment. I am no mechanic so bear with me . I am attaching some pix from the engine bay hoping you will be able to figure out what has been removed (I believe it was de-smogged but...) and what is left if any.
Any comments / advice ? Any obvious non original / genuine equipment ?
If any detail is unclear, I can take more pix...
Thanks so much for you help ...
Cheers,
Cin
Note : I figured out that the Heater has been bypassed...
Help needed on engine status ('77 USA)
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- Patron 2020
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- Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:00 pm
- Your car is a: 1973 Spider [sold]
- Location: Baltimore, MD
Re: Help needed on engine status ('77 USA)
Hello and Welcome!
You'll need to know if Belgium's emissions testing is only concerned with the "result" (emissions measured at the tailpipe), or if, like California, all the original equipment must also be intact.
Another member can answer if the 1977 MY was equipped with catalytic converter and/or air pump, but I can offer the following:
∙ some jurisdictions prohibit aftermarket exhaust components, and your car has a non-standard exhaust header
∙ your firewall VIN tag is hand-made; many inspectors take a dim view of these - make sure the VIN stamped in the firewall, the one on the
door tag and the windscreen tag match the hand-written one in the photo
∙ on the drivers fender well, there should be a pushbutton switch that tests the fast idle circuit - next to it a cylindrical electric valve
You'll need to know if Belgium's emissions testing is only concerned with the "result" (emissions measured at the tailpipe), or if, like California, all the original equipment must also be intact.
Another member can answer if the 1977 MY was equipped with catalytic converter and/or air pump, but I can offer the following:
∙ some jurisdictions prohibit aftermarket exhaust components, and your car has a non-standard exhaust header
∙ your firewall VIN tag is hand-made; many inspectors take a dim view of these - make sure the VIN stamped in the firewall, the one on the
door tag and the windscreen tag match the hand-written one in the photo
∙ on the drivers fender well, there should be a pushbutton switch that tests the fast idle circuit - next to it a cylindrical electric valve
Re: Help needed on engine status ('77 USA)
baltobernie wrote:Hello and Welcome!
You'll need to know if Belgium's emissions testing is only concerned with the "result" (emissions measured at the tailpipe), or if, like California, all the original equipment must also be intact.
Another member can answer if the 1977 MY was equipped with catalytic converter and/or air pump, but I can offer the following:
∙ some jurisdictions prohibit aftermarket exhaust components, and your car has a non-standard exhaust header
∙ your firewall VIN tag is hand-made; many inspectors take a dim view of these - make sure the VIN stamped in the firewall, the one on the
door tag and the windscreen tag match the hand-written one in the photo
∙ on the drivers fender well, there should be a pushbutton switch that tests the fast idle circuit - next to it a cylindrical electric valve
Thank you very much for your reply, baltobernie !
Actually, we are pretty lucky here in Belgium. There is an "Oldtimer specific (>30 year old)" (and very light) testing carried out by the Authorities. Basically, they take into account the car is an oldtimer and do not make a problem with "emissions" or non conformity to original specs. The bulk of the control is geared towards "safety" and overall condition of the car (brakes and dampers condition, overall chassis, axles, steering,...)
Same goes for the VIN tag. It has been (llikely) redone by the local Fiat office here at the time of import from the USA... No problem. I already passed all necessary licensing controls.
Now, my question was more towards confirming which Emission reduction or other US-specific equipment was still on the car (if any). I could figure out a few things have been done to "release" the engine and set it back to a level closer to the Euro 1800 CC but being no mechanic, I do not know if there are still components that "limit" the engine capabilities. My intention would be to make it as close to the standard European 1800CC setup as possible.
Thanks again and keen on learning more on this engine
Cheers,
Cin
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Onlineblazingspider
- Posts: 173
- Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:44 am
- Your car is a: 1977 fiat spider
- Location: Oakridge, Oregon
Re: Help needed on engine status ('77 USA)
The 77 model year had a smog pump, an egr system and a few switches for the carb that kept the idle speed high during certain situations.
I can tell from your pictures that the smog system and the egr system have been removed but can't tell if the switches for the carb are still there or operable.
You also have an aftermarket exhaust header and the carb is probably the stock 32ADFA with a water choke.
Hope this helps.
I can tell from your pictures that the smog system and the egr system have been removed but can't tell if the switches for the carb are still there or operable.
You also have an aftermarket exhaust header and the carb is probably the stock 32ADFA with a water choke.
Hope this helps.
Re: Help needed on engine status ('77 USA)
Thank you very much ! THis is very helpful for me as a newbieblazingspider wrote:The 77 model year had a smog pump, an egr system and a few switches for the carb that kept the idle speed high during certain situations.
I can tell from your pictures that the smog system and the egr system have been removed but can't tell if the switches for the carb are still there or operable.
You also have an aftermarket exhaust header and the carb is probably the stock 32ADFA with a water choke.
Hope this helps.
This confirms what I suspected. Where should I find the carb switches ? What pictures are needed to confirm a) the switches are gone b) carb type ?
Was there a difference between the European carb and the US carb (besides the switches) ?
From pictures comparisons, it looks as if the exhaust header (and the whole exhaust as a matter of fact) is a retrofit to the standard exhaust installed on EURO 1800CC cars... Do you agree for the exhaust header ?
Once again thanks to everyone for the input !!!
Have a nice weekend all...
Cheers
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- Location: Tasmania, Australia
Re: Help needed on engine status ('77 USA)
Playing with the carb or exhaust won't get you close to a Euro 1800, you need to up the compression.cingarbage wrote:I could figure out a few things have been done to "release" the engine and set it back to a level closer to the Euro 1800 CC but being no mechanic, I do not know if there are still components that "limit" the engine capabilities.
Mick.
'82 2litre 131, rally cams, IDFs & headers.
'82 2litre 131, rally cams, IDFs & headers.
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Onlineblazingspider
- Posts: 173
- Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:44 am
- Your car is a: 1977 fiat spider
- Location: Oakridge, Oregon
Re: Help needed on engine status ('77 USA)
As Mick stated, to really wake up these motors you need increased compression and cams. That being said removing emissions equipment may give you a very small bump in hp but will also result in smoother operation.
I neglected to mention a few of the other systems in my first reply and here are my suggestions about what to do with each of them:
Evaporative emissions system - routes fuel vapors from the tank and the carb bowl to a charcoal canister for storage and then is re-burned when the engine is running. Leave this system as is. It won't help to increase performance and may be detrimental if the gas tank can't vent and you don't want to smell gas fumes all the time either.
Dual point distributor - Has 2 sets of points. One for cold starting and one for running. The cold start points are set at 10 degrees BTDC and the running points are set a 0 degrees BTDC from the factory. Most folks either re-wire the distributor to use just one set of points and set them at 10 degrees BTDC or they upgrade to an electronic unit from a later car or retrofit the existing distributor with either a pertronix unit or a crane unit. In my opinion getting a fatter spark out of the ignition system will make a difference.
Weber 32 ADFA Carb - this is the carb you probably have on your car. The switches I was referring to that hold the idle speed high in certain situations all operate a vacuum capsule on the front of the carb closest to the engine. If the vacuum port is blocked off for the capsule then the switches won't do anything when engaged. The ADFA also has a small orifice to re-burn some of the crankcase vapors and can be left as is or removed, it won't do much of anything either way.
Hope this helps.
I neglected to mention a few of the other systems in my first reply and here are my suggestions about what to do with each of them:
Evaporative emissions system - routes fuel vapors from the tank and the carb bowl to a charcoal canister for storage and then is re-burned when the engine is running. Leave this system as is. It won't help to increase performance and may be detrimental if the gas tank can't vent and you don't want to smell gas fumes all the time either.
Dual point distributor - Has 2 sets of points. One for cold starting and one for running. The cold start points are set at 10 degrees BTDC and the running points are set a 0 degrees BTDC from the factory. Most folks either re-wire the distributor to use just one set of points and set them at 10 degrees BTDC or they upgrade to an electronic unit from a later car or retrofit the existing distributor with either a pertronix unit or a crane unit. In my opinion getting a fatter spark out of the ignition system will make a difference.
Weber 32 ADFA Carb - this is the carb you probably have on your car. The switches I was referring to that hold the idle speed high in certain situations all operate a vacuum capsule on the front of the carb closest to the engine. If the vacuum port is blocked off for the capsule then the switches won't do anything when engaged. The ADFA also has a small orifice to re-burn some of the crankcase vapors and can be left as is or removed, it won't do much of anything either way.
Hope this helps.
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- Patron 2020
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Re: Help needed on engine status ('77 USA)
To fully answer your questions, the best answer is a shop manual. As you can see, your conversion is not a one- or two-step procedure.
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- Location: Texas, USA
Re: Help needed on engine status ('77 USA)
Hi,
To get closer to the Euro spec engine you would need a larger carburetor, like a 34ADF, larger exhaust (euro 1800 had 50mm diameter), and higher compression pistons. The latter is the most difficult to do, as the engine has to be taken apart. There is a slight possibility that it already has higher compression pistons, if the engine was rebuilt before.
To get closer to the Euro spec engine you would need a larger carburetor, like a 34ADF, larger exhaust (euro 1800 had 50mm diameter), and higher compression pistons. The latter is the most difficult to do, as the engine has to be taken apart. There is a slight possibility that it already has higher compression pistons, if the engine was rebuilt before.
Csaba
'71 124 Spider, much modified
'17 124 Abarth, silver
http://italiancarclub.com/csaba/
Co-owner of the best dang Fiat parts place in town
'71 124 Spider, much modified
'17 124 Abarth, silver
http://italiancarclub.com/csaba/
Co-owner of the best dang Fiat parts place in town
Re: Help needed on engine status ('77 USA)
Thank you all for the very precise and helpful comments ...
I did not anticipate there would be so many differences and so much "tuning" required to retrofit to EURO1800 specs
Indeed being no mechanic, I will definitely need to revert to professional help if I decide to pursue this route.
Right now, I will use your comments to further define the current status (check the carb and try and figure out engine status re: compression). As far as exhaust is concerned, the exhaust line is already 50mm (and header changed as well as per pix). I will also try and get hold of a shop manual as well...
Thanks once more!! I will likely revert with further questions in the near future !
I did not anticipate there would be so many differences and so much "tuning" required to retrofit to EURO1800 specs
Indeed being no mechanic, I will definitely need to revert to professional help if I decide to pursue this route.
Right now, I will use your comments to further define the current status (check the carb and try and figure out engine status re: compression). As far as exhaust is concerned, the exhaust line is already 50mm (and header changed as well as per pix). I will also try and get hold of a shop manual as well...
Thanks once more!! I will likely revert with further questions in the near future !