Getting frustrated !

[ga.spyder]

Hey friends.
I am having an issue that I cant seem to sort http://fiatspider.com/f08/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=31382
I have checked static timing...good.Timed with a light..good.When cool,it starts with the flick of a key like it always has.Today,after checking everything and feeling that the car felt sluggish,I intentionally advanced the timing a tad by ear.The car ran the best it has in years! I was driving all around with visions of a long ride thru the mountains Nope.As soon as I shut it off it refused to restart.I noticed the connector to the AAR was off,I found it!! Nope.it didnt change anything.I,by ear,retarded the timing a bit.Fired right up...and then shut off like I had turned the key.Now I have that"lean' smell when it shut off.Pulled the plug and it was bone dry.Got it started after a few minutes,drove down the road 100 yards,pushed in the clutch to stop and turn around..it dies.No sputtering,again like I turned the key to off position.Restarted after a minute of cranking and back to the garage.Set the timing with a light to proper+10.Shut her off and it wont restart.Lean smell again,plug dry.
Am I looking in the wrong place?At this point I am thinking that it isnt a timing issue.When running,she runs great.I am completely frustrated to the point that the car is sitting in the garage with the hood still up.I had to walk away before I did something I would regret!! Please feel free to criticize my methods or to offer any suggestions.

[ORFORD2004]

Next time it happen, try spray carburator cleaner in the intake. If it start, then you know that the problem is not ignition. Check voltage at the pump when cranking. No voltage, check the switch in the AFM and the double relay.

[ga.spyder]

Thanks for that.I mustered up a little patience and went back to the garage.Car wouldnt restart.I checked,and I do have spark.I got it started and headed down the road.I went 1/4 mile and it just shut off...dead.I jiggled around with the dizz a bit,and she refired (coincedence?).I drove it back to the garage,and shut her off and walked away.I am lost,although I am starting to think fuel as you suggested.When I move the AFM flap the fuel pump does energize when the car is in non-start mode.
I have won multiple car shows,including FFO, with this car.I have run track days,time/distance rallies and I have driven it all over the country.Never a issue like this.It has 83K on the clock.The only time it has been apart was this past winter,for some much needed valve seal replacement.The lower end has never been touched! Maybe I am spoiled from the lack of problems,but I am extremely frustrated.

[courtenay]

Fuel pump?

[lanciahf]

Just by chance can you see if the timing belt jumped a tooth? Or maybe the pickup inside the distributor is loose.

[focodave]

Craig,

It sounds like you have ruled out any problems on the ignition side.
You said that when it would not start, you still had spark.
OK.
Now you need to concentrate on what is causing what sounds like the injectors not firing or it is starving for fuel.
Intermittent problems are, of course, the most frustrating ones to solve. Luckily, these cars are so simple that you can and will find the problem.
I had a year-long intermittent problem that sounded somewhat like yours -- not exact -- but close. My car never stopped running while it was in motion (thank God), but it would often not start for no apparent reason.
It turned out to be an intermittent connection on one of the spade lugs on the dual relay. Temperature, vibration, and even my wife's foot movement in the foot well close to the ECU cable would cause enough movement in the cable and everything it was connected to, to make and break the connection. The spade connector was extremely loose on the lug coming out of the relay. I confirmed this was the problem when I had the car running one day, dropped the relay panel to gain access to the dual relay, and started jiggling the wires until I found the exact one that made the car stop and start while I moved the spade connector.
This intermittent connection was causing the injectors to not fire when the connection was broken at the dual relay.
I re-shaped the spade connector with a pair of needle nose pliers so that it was a tight pressure fit on the lug like it is supposed to be, and I have not had the problem for over a year, now.
Perhaps you have a similar problem.
It doesn't take a lot of effort to check this.
Also, try disconnecting and re-connecting the large ECU connector. I also had a problem there when I first bought my car, years ago.
Dave

[fiatfactory]

.

[bradartigue]

I'm not drawing the connection you're making between it not being timing/ignition and it seems every time you touch the distributor the thing starts working again. I don't think there are coincidences here - I'd test the ignition wiring all the way around. Hot and cold.

[ga.spyder]

Thanks everybody for the suggestions.All valid and I will eventually get to the bottom of this.Some of these suggestions have made me think out of the box a bit.I am especially focused on the distributor itself.It was out of the car for a while,and it does seem when I jiggle it around ,that I do get the car restarted.I had a issue with the wiring from the ignition switch last year(burned connection in the connector).Those wires are removed from the connector and wired directly together,along with my extra "brown wire''.When this restart problem first happened,I checked that and rewired them all thinking that was my problem,I am sure I am ok there. I also swapped out the coil,control module,and mag p/u with known good parts,and the swapped them back.Same problem so I feel I can eliminate those items.
I think I will start with the dizz,and try to work my way thru the ignition system.If I cant find the gremlin,I will go after the double relay and f.i. And yes...intermittent problems SUCK! I think I will hold off taking the pictures and putting it on ebay Thanks again for the help,and keep any ideas coming.This is what makes this a great forum.

[wizard124]

Some thoughts......
When it "just died....like I turned off the key" Did the tach drop to zero with the engine still turning over? That would indicate an electrical problem. When you crank the engine to try to re-start it when it is hot, is there any fluctuation on the tach? If not, this also indicates an electrical problem.

There is a wire connection (brown wire) which runs from the coil to the ECU. This signal is used by the ECU to shape the injection pulse to fire the injectors. So, if there is an electrical problem affecting the ignition circuit, then you will have a fuel delivery problem also. This is because without a valid RPM signal, the ECU will not fire the fuel injectors so no fuel (and dry plugs as you describe).

The intermittent, only when hot, not starting issue is perplexing. Assume, after the car has run awhile, some electrical components heat up. Wires, coil, ECU, etc. heat up. As wire heats up, its resistance goes up.........
Here goes my theory. The car starts when cold, 12 volts from the battery works just great. With the car running, the alternator is kicking out about 14 volts. This alternator voltage is sufficient to overcome increased resistance somewhere in the ignition/ECU circuit. Then when you try to re-start the car, the increased resistance causes enough of a voltage drop that the FI system doesn't function properly. That said, to prove this theory, dis-connecting the alternator output with the car running (and fully warmed up) would cause the engine to shut off.

Where to look? I would look at that brown wire. Corrosion at the connector? Frayed insulation? Clean the terminals at the ECU. Read the resistance of the brown wire from the coil end to the ECU end....is it reasonable? Swap out the coil, distributor cap, rotor, ECU.

[fiatfactory]

.

[76was124]

Next time it happen, try spray carburator cleaner in the intake. If it start, then you know that the problem is not ignition. Check voltage at the pump when cranking. No voltage, check the switch in the AFM and the double relay.

If it was me, I would follow ORFORD2004 advice to 100% rule out lack of fuel. It's an easy test to spray starter fluid in the intake when it won't start. If it starts, a noid light on the injectors will tell you whether its fuel delivery or injector electrical circuit. ( dual relay etc).

[md88plt]

I once had an issue with a bad distributer cap. Engine heat was changing the resistance in the cap so the car ran fine cold , but when the cap got warm the car ran like crap.

That cap was new at the time. World Parts type. Lesson for me was don't cheap parts.

[ga.spyder]

Thanks again guys.I looked into it a little this morning.It was a no start.I went thru every wire going to and from the ignition.Everything was fine.Car was still a no start.Now,this is with a COLD motor! I kept trying and it finally started.It sounded flooded.It would barely idle.I revved it a little and was getting a popping,almost like a backfire.Then,it cleared out and ran fine.I let it run until the fan came on,while pulling,twisting,and playing with every connection on the car.She purrs away.I used my stethescope to listen to the injectors....clicking away nicely.I shut it down,and restarted it 5 times .All good except I am thouroghly confused.
As I write this,I went back out to the garage.Car started perfectly 3 times,cold engine. Hence,the fact I am afraid to drive the car away from the house!
ps I didnt notice the tach when it died,but when I am trying to restart it fluctuates (bounces) slightly as I crank.I believe that is normal.When it died when running ,the oil and battery lights came on,just as when you go to start it.It literally died.

[sgkent]

next time it won't start throw an inductive timing light on it and see if you have a steady flash when cranking it. If so that will eliminate the distributor and point to the fuel injection system. If you don't get a flash then you have an electrical problem around the distributor or ignition switch.