Weird starting issue...need some suggestions

[ga.spyder]

Hey Gang.My 82 Spider has 83K on the clock.Over the winter ,I had Beek refresh the head on her.The car went back together this Spring.New timing belt,tensioner,water pump and seals.I havent been able to devote much time to it since,due to some family health issues,etc...
The issue I am having is with warm starts.It fires at the touch of the key when cold,like it always has.There has never been an issue with this car starting! When the car gets up to temp,it ,at time,wont start.It is turning over fine,and fuel pump is running.No fire.When it cools for 10 minutes or so,it usually starts right back.When running it is ok,although I think my timimg may be off a bit.It feels lacking in mid range power.
I have swapped in all the components in the electrical system with known good spares with the exception of the dizz itself.Coil,control module,mag p/u,cap,and plugs all swapped around .No difference.I took it for a 20 minute ride this morning,just to warm it up and try and replicate the problem.As soon as I pulled back in the garage it wouldnt restart.It even backfired a few time!! Fuel injection shouldnt backfire.I got it resarted once,and went to feed it throttle and it just died.No spark.I am at a loss as to where to look.
This car has always been dead nuts reliable.Now,it has left me stranded in parking lots twice.I am at a point where I am afraid to drive it ,for fear of getting parked somewhere.Any feedback and suggestions are welcomed!!! Thanks.Craig

[spider2081]

Have you unplugged the cold start valve when it won't start? Have you pulled a spark plug after cranking it and not starting to see if it is wet with fuel??

[ga.spyder]

Hey David...No to both.I have had a plug out when it isnt starting,and there is no spark.I didnt notice if it was wet or not. I havent tried unplugging the cold start valve.Could that valve be an issue? It is definitely getting fuel,to the point that after extended cranking you can smell it.A couple times when it has started it appears to be flooded.Thanks for the reply.
After I posted this ,I went out and tried to start it.After extended cranking,it finally started.I checked the timing and it was slightly retarded but not to the point of being an issue.It was at or very near 0 deg instead of +10.Now that the engine is cold it starts at the touch of a key, like it always has.This is how it has been.After it cools,it starts fine.

[spider2081]

I was thinking maybe the cold start valve is leaking or the thermal switch is telling it to open and when the car is hot the mixture is too rich. Sometimes if the spark plug is too wet with fuel you might not see the spark because it is actually passing through the Moisture of the fuel and not across the gap.

[ga.spyder]

I will drive it up and down my road(I am scared to get too far away ),and get it warm,and check that out.Thanks again David.I am at a lost on this one!

[76was124]

Backfire and timing at 0 degrees? Maybe you want to 1st double check all the static timing marks and reset timing to +10. Did you gap the distributor's mag pick- up when you put the new one in? Any chance you removed/ replace the vacuum advance? I know if you don't get the plastic clip back on properly it can restrict the advance movement and cause some Ignition timing problems.

[bradartigue]

Backfire and timing at 0 degrees? Maybe you want to 1st double check all the static timing marks and reset timing to +10. Did you gap the distributor's mag pick- up when you put the new one in? Any chance you removed/ replace the vacuum advance? I know if you don't get the plastic clip back on properly it can restrict the advance movement and cause some Ignition timing problems.

I agree, this sounds like an ignition problem. Check the engine timing, check the cam timing/timing belt position. My theory is, when cold, you get a big rush of fuel against a poorly timed ignition and it starts and runs. It runs real lean - as you're describing - until you shut it down. Then the FI system is in a normal mode and won't give you that huge rush of fuel - because the motor is warm - so it won't start with your bad spark.

I seriously doubt this is a cold start injection problem but if you think it may be then just block out that injector, either electrically (disconnect it) or remove it temporarily and have it spray into a jar. If it sprays when the engine is warm then you have a faulty thermo-time switch or fifth injector. But as often as this system is a culprit it is rarely found to be a problem.

[ga.spyder]

Thanks guys.I agree that it seems like an ignition issue.I thought I had the static timing spot on when I did the new timing belt,but....I t seems I am going to have to pull it all apart and check it again.
I did check the gap on the mag p/u.I had the entire distributor out,but not disassembled.I never took the vac advance off.

[76was124]

..I t seems I am going to have to pull it all apart and check it again.

You shouldn't have to take anything apart....just manually rotate the engine and use the hole in the cam pulleys and the pointers(, or cam cover bosses) visible from the firewall side of the cam pulleys to check your cam timing. Then see where the crank mark is at (hopefully TDC)

You will want to make sure you have the plugs pulled or at least the plug wires pulled so you don't start the engine inadvertently. It is easier to rotate the engine though if the plugs are out especially when rolling the car in second gear to rotate the crank. I have done it with the plugs in by using the starter to get it close and rolling it in second gear the last bit to line of the cam marks (then check'd the crank mark). Not a perfect way to verify TDC, but close enough to determine if you are off on the cams.

[ga.spyder]

Thank you for that.Of course I can do that...brain fart!!I only need to get the cover off I am headed to the garage to check that out now.I know for sure that the static timing was right when I did the timing belt.Unless it somehow slipped ,it should be spot on.I was extremely careful when I did that,as I had never changed mine before.

[bradartigue]

If spot on then check your ignition timing. What you are describing sounds to me like an engine timed at or 0 degrees BTDC or above 0. It should be in the 10 BTDC range (the second marker on the indicator).

At the very least you have to verify all of this is correct.

[ga.spyder]

Hey Brad.The static timing is correct.I will check the ignition timing in the next couple days(I am working some evenings),and see what I can find.Thanks for the help.I always value your expertise.I believe you are correct on it being a timing issue.That makes sense.I want to get it right for Atlantas Italian Car Day,where I owe you lunch for all the help over the years!

[bradartigue]

Hey Brad.The static timing is correct.I will check the ignition timing in the next couple days(I am working some evenings),and see what I can find.Thanks for the help.I always value your expertise.I believe you are correct on it being a timing issue.That makes sense.I want to get it right for Atlantas Italian Car Day,where I owe you lunch for all the help over the years!

If that's not it I can swing by one day, you're only about 1.5 hours from me.

[ga.spyder]

Thanks Brad.I will let you know what I figure out.

[Europa]

Hey Craig, where are you with your Spider? All sorted out?