I appreciate that idea, but... First, I feel that I'm close to coming to a conclusion on the idle/FI issues. Second, one person's "basics" may be something quite different to another person. I'm comfortable chasing down air leaks and troubleshooting electrical problems. I've done quite a bit of aesthetic, maintenance, and improvement work to the car already, but I have never delved into the interior of any engine - even just as far as the valves. I'm sure checking the clearances is not that big a deal, but it still represents terra incognita for me and therefore causes some hesitation!lanciahf wrote:I would start with the basics and then tackle the FI system. At least you know where you are starting from.
AFM and Idle Issues (With Some Fuel Pump Issues Thrown In)
- KevAndAndi
- Posts: 531
- Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:14 pm
- Your car is a: 1981 Fiat Spider 2000
- Location: Chatham, NJ
Re: AFM and Idle Issues (With Some Fuel Pump Issues Thrown In)
Last edited by KevAndAndi on Wed Aug 19, 2015 12:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Kevin
1981 Spider 2000
1981 Spider 2000
- KevAndAndi
- Posts: 531
- Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:14 pm
- Your car is a: 1981 Fiat Spider 2000
- Location: Chatham, NJ
Re: AFM and Idle Issues (With Some Fuel Pump Issues Thrown In)
SUCCESS.
To recap, after we bought the car in Oct. 2014, I began diagnosing issues with the idle and FI, ultimately with the help of Brad Artigue's manual (and Brad himself). I identified two major air leaks, at the idle speed screw o-ring and at the junction of the air flow meter and the big air hose. I fixed those and also tested various components such as the cold start injector and the auxiliary air valve. I replaced the coolant temperature sensor just because it was old.
A persistent problem was that when I started the engine, once the cold start injector finished its work, the RPMs would dive to stall levels. I had to rev the engine until it warmed up, and then it would run OK, though exhibiting an unpredictable idle level at stop lights. Could be 1500, could be 500.
I had known that the AFM was not working properly. The fuel pump was energized as soon as I turned the key to the ACC position, indicating that a PO had bent the electrical contact arm in the AFM. Why did the PO do this? Because the AFM flap was not working properly. It was in a "saloon door" situation, in a resting state being slightly ajar in an outward position. When I started the engine, the AFM flap never moved. Even if it did move at higher RPMs (something I never confirmed), it was likely that the electronic sweeper track was worn after more than 100,000 miles. In addition, the air bypass screw had been tampered with and was almost certainly not set to factory specs.
So last night, I reinstalled the AFM which had been rebuilt, adjusted, and tested by Fuel Injection Corp. I turned the key to the pre-start position, and the fuel pump did not become energized yet. So far, so good. We can play the radio without running the pump. Then I started the engine. Fired right up, and a few seconds later...the RPMs held steady. No RPM dive! And the AFM flap opens inward during idle!
However...whereas before, I was able to bring to engine to a stall by screwing the idle speed screw in beyond a certain point, now I can completely seat the screw and the idle does not go below 1200. Now, this was around the best idle I was able to achieve previously (the engine starts to run a little rough around 1000), and it "sounds" right to my ear, but it doesn't seem right that I should be able to completely seat the screw without stalling, so I may have another air leak somewhere. (I should note that I suspect that the tach may be overstating the RPMs.)
I still need to road test the rebuilt AFM and see what happens with the RPMs at stop lights, but for now the idle is rock solid in the garage, so I'll call it a victory.
Thanks to all, particularly Brad, for your help! And to Dan (sierraspider) for recommending Fuel Injection Corporation!
Addendum:
For an example of another "won't stay running until warmed up", "bent AFM flap", and "fuel pump runs with key in ACC position" thread, see:
http://fiatspider.com/f08/viewtopic.php ... +warmed+up
For an example of another good experience with an AFM rebuilt by Fuel Injection Corp., see:
http://fiatspider.com/f08/viewtopic.php ... ction+corp
As seen in the thread linked above, I learned about FIC in May, but the delay in getting the AFM rebuilt was all my fault. The turnaround once you send the device to them is only a couple of days.
Further Addendum:
On 8/25/15, the car's owner and I finally went out for a test drive. She reported that it felt like a completely different car. Running smoother, no fighting to keep the engine from stalling at stop signs, and no "too-rich" odor. Acceleration was good, too. In short, it was finally a pleasure to drive.
To recap, after we bought the car in Oct. 2014, I began diagnosing issues with the idle and FI, ultimately with the help of Brad Artigue's manual (and Brad himself). I identified two major air leaks, at the idle speed screw o-ring and at the junction of the air flow meter and the big air hose. I fixed those and also tested various components such as the cold start injector and the auxiliary air valve. I replaced the coolant temperature sensor just because it was old.
A persistent problem was that when I started the engine, once the cold start injector finished its work, the RPMs would dive to stall levels. I had to rev the engine until it warmed up, and then it would run OK, though exhibiting an unpredictable idle level at stop lights. Could be 1500, could be 500.
I had known that the AFM was not working properly. The fuel pump was energized as soon as I turned the key to the ACC position, indicating that a PO had bent the electrical contact arm in the AFM. Why did the PO do this? Because the AFM flap was not working properly. It was in a "saloon door" situation, in a resting state being slightly ajar in an outward position. When I started the engine, the AFM flap never moved. Even if it did move at higher RPMs (something I never confirmed), it was likely that the electronic sweeper track was worn after more than 100,000 miles. In addition, the air bypass screw had been tampered with and was almost certainly not set to factory specs.
So last night, I reinstalled the AFM which had been rebuilt, adjusted, and tested by Fuel Injection Corp. I turned the key to the pre-start position, and the fuel pump did not become energized yet. So far, so good. We can play the radio without running the pump. Then I started the engine. Fired right up, and a few seconds later...the RPMs held steady. No RPM dive! And the AFM flap opens inward during idle!
However...whereas before, I was able to bring to engine to a stall by screwing the idle speed screw in beyond a certain point, now I can completely seat the screw and the idle does not go below 1200. Now, this was around the best idle I was able to achieve previously (the engine starts to run a little rough around 1000), and it "sounds" right to my ear, but it doesn't seem right that I should be able to completely seat the screw without stalling, so I may have another air leak somewhere. (I should note that I suspect that the tach may be overstating the RPMs.)
I still need to road test the rebuilt AFM and see what happens with the RPMs at stop lights, but for now the idle is rock solid in the garage, so I'll call it a victory.
Thanks to all, particularly Brad, for your help! And to Dan (sierraspider) for recommending Fuel Injection Corporation!
Addendum:
For an example of another "won't stay running until warmed up", "bent AFM flap", and "fuel pump runs with key in ACC position" thread, see:
http://fiatspider.com/f08/viewtopic.php ... +warmed+up
For an example of another good experience with an AFM rebuilt by Fuel Injection Corp., see:
http://fiatspider.com/f08/viewtopic.php ... ction+corp
As seen in the thread linked above, I learned about FIC in May, but the delay in getting the AFM rebuilt was all my fault. The turnaround once you send the device to them is only a couple of days.
Further Addendum:
On 8/25/15, the car's owner and I finally went out for a test drive. She reported that it felt like a completely different car. Running smoother, no fighting to keep the engine from stalling at stop signs, and no "too-rich" odor. Acceleration was good, too. In short, it was finally a pleasure to drive.
Last edited by KevAndAndi on Wed Aug 26, 2015 8:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
Kevin
1981 Spider 2000
1981 Spider 2000
- bradartigue
- Posts: 2183
- Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 2:35 pm
- Your car is a: 1970 Sport Spider
- Location: Atlanta, GA
Re: AFM and Idle Issues (With Some Fuel Pump Issues Thrown In)
Fantastic!
1970 124 Spider
http://www.artigue.com/fiat
http://www.artigue.com/fiat
- 4uall
- Posts: 4145
- Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:09 pm
- Your car is a: 1980 Fiat Pininfarina Spider 2000 F.I.
- Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Re: AFM and Idle Issues (With Some Fuel Pump Issues Thrown In)
That is great news So glad to see an end of thread that has resolution
Jay
Fiona
1980 FI 2000 Spider
ITZEBTZE
https://goo.gl/photos/eNKaX7hrXhBu9fmp6
FINN (FN-2187)
2014 Jeep Wrangler Sport
MYTHERPY
Fiona
1980 FI 2000 Spider
ITZEBTZE
https://goo.gl/photos/eNKaX7hrXhBu9fmp6
FINN (FN-2187)
2014 Jeep Wrangler Sport
MYTHERPY
-
- Patron 2019
- Posts: 620
- Joined: Sun May 16, 2010 4:43 pm
- Your car is a: 1981 Spider 2000
- Location: Detroit Area
Re: AFM and Idle Issues (With Some Fuel Pump Issues Thrown In)
Regarding your high idle....have you re-set the throttle plate idle screw and TPS switch since you put on the refurbished AFM? Sounds like the throttle plate stop is set too far open? The TPS can keep the throttle plate open too far, so the TPS mounting screws may need to be loose for the throttle plate to close down all the way.
Current 81 Spider 2000
Previous 76 Spider
Previous 76 Spider
- KevAndAndi
- Posts: 531
- Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:14 pm
- Your car is a: 1981 Fiat Spider 2000
- Location: Chatham, NJ
Re: AFM and Idle Issues (With Some Fuel Pump Issues Thrown In)
Thanks! I did reset the throttle stop screw in addition to the idle speed screw after re-installation of the AFM.76was124 wrote:Regarding your high idle....have you re-set the throttle plate idle screw and TPS switch since you put on the refurbished AFM? Sounds like the throttle plate stop is set too far open? The TPS can keep the throttle plate open too far, so the TPS mounting screws may need to be loose for the throttle plate to close down all the way.
While I previously tested and adjusted the TPS before removing the AFM, I have not re-checked since re-installing, so I'll try that.
For some reason, when I started the engine again last night, the idle seemed slightly lower - maybe 1100. To my ear, the engine isn't happy idling much lower than that (again, the tach may be incorrect). If this is the ideal idle, it bothers me that it's achieved by having the idle speed screw fully seated. Seems like there should be an adjustment range from high-idle to near-stall.
I have a set of silicone vacuum hoses, most of which I had installed prior to removing the AFM. It's possible I have a leak in one of the old hoses yet to be replaced. I replaced the brake booster hose, so no obvious leak there. The brake pedal now depresses slightly on its own when the engine is started, just as it's supposed to.
Kevin
1981 Spider 2000
1981 Spider 2000
Re: AFM and Idle Issues (With Some Fuel Pump Issues Thrown In)
Kevin,
Sorry if this has been covered before. But has the timing been verified with a timing light?
Sorry if this has been covered before. But has the timing been verified with a timing light?
- azruss
- Posts: 3659
- Joined: Sun May 30, 2010 12:24 pm
- Your car is a: 80 Fiat 2000 FI
Re: AFM and Idle Issues (With Some Fuel Pump Issues Thrown In)
There is a check valve at the brake booster end of the hose. May want to check that.
- KevAndAndi
- Posts: 531
- Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:14 pm
- Your car is a: 1981 Fiat Spider 2000
- Location: Chatham, NJ
Re: AFM and Idle Issues (With Some Fuel Pump Issues Thrown In)
It has not. I will see if I can borrow one.lanciahf wrote:Kevin,
Sorry if this has been covered before. But has the timing been verified with a timing light?
Kevin
1981 Spider 2000
1981 Spider 2000
- KevAndAndi
- Posts: 531
- Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:14 pm
- Your car is a: 1981 Fiat Spider 2000
- Location: Chatham, NJ
Re: AFM and Idle Issues (With Some Fuel Pump Issues Thrown In)
Will do that; thanks.azruss wrote:There is a check valve at the brake booster end of the hose. May want to check that.
Kevin
1981 Spider 2000
1981 Spider 2000
- bradartigue
- Posts: 2183
- Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 2:35 pm
- Your car is a: 1970 Sport Spider
- Location: Atlanta, GA
Re: AFM and Idle Issues (With Some Fuel Pump Issues Thrown In)
Easiest way to check for leaks is to eliminate the vacuum lines from the equation; remove them at the FI plenum and block the ports, or pinch the lines. Then open/connect them back one by one. The offender will raise the idle significantly.
1970 124 Spider
http://www.artigue.com/fiat
http://www.artigue.com/fiat
- KevAndAndi
- Posts: 531
- Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:14 pm
- Your car is a: 1981 Fiat Spider 2000
- Location: Chatham, NJ
Re: AFM and Idle Issues (With Some Fuel Pump Issues Thrown In)
Thanks, I have done that with a couple of them, but not with the brake booster hose. Will try that one.bradartigue wrote:Easiest way to check for leaks is to eliminate the vacuum lines from the equation; remove them at the FI plenum and block the ports, or pinch the lines. Then open/connect them back one by one. The offender will raise the idle significantly.
Kevin
1981 Spider 2000
1981 Spider 2000