engine rebuild, which way to go?

[zachmac]

I purchased a non-running car a few months back that I have since gotten to the running but rough stage, a 79, 2 liter. It sat without cranking over or running for the better part of four years. As I said, runs now but rough with lots of smoke on startup (most likely guides) and some obvious blow by into the crankcase (based on vapors from the crankcase vent). The PO couldn't tell me much about the original mods but here is what I know: twin down draft Webers, headers and unknown cam shafts? Good oil pressure and shifts fine but rough idle with lots of missing, rough transition on gradual acceleration but strong running on full throttle.

So, where to begin? I am thinking:
1) pull the carbs and head
2) go through the carbs with a thorough cleaning and rebuild and check all the jets / emulsion tubes, etc, while I'm at it to see what I've got,
3) ID cams and send the head off to be cleaned up and possibly worked over
4) while the head is off check the condition of the cylinders and make a decision to pull engine or not for rebuild or at a minimum a new set of rings.

I have run about a tank of gas with lots of additive / cleaners first to try to get the rings freed up (and Marvel Mystery in each cylinder) but I think the blow by is about as good as it is going to get on its own.

Questions:
1) is it easier to just pull the whole engine versus the head and then the block if needed? Almost seems it would be easier to get to the engine to tranny bolts with the head out of the way as I don't plan on touching the tranny for now.
2) Does anyone know if Midwest124 is still doing work? I've left him several phone messages with no response. Maybe I'll try an email or two?
3)If I want just a nice running car and don't care all that much about performance should I sell the carb setup and go with a single carb (anyone want to buy the dual Webers?)?

I'll have a lot more questions as I go but that's the starters.

[tsunami01]

if you decide to go single carb. i could be interested in your set up.

[toplessexpat]

It seems your plan of attack doesn't call for pulling the engine. Heading in from the top down, and provided you can raise the car fairly high you're not going to need to pull the engine. Ok - so pulling it would make stripping it down easier - but not obligatory (IMHO).

I think your order is a good one. Fwiw - if those cams are really hot your idle may forever be lumpy.

Single or dual? I'm running a pretty hot single carb (38ADL) and I keep toying with going to duals. I've been convinced by sptcoupe that once they're set up right they're actually v good . I'd set them up right and keep 'em.

A

[spider2081]

I think the car has a solid state ignition. Have you tried another ignition control module? The rough running could be partly related to that.

[spidernut]

1. Check for cracked spark plug wires/do a tune up
2. Check for vacuum leaks (don't forget to check the gulp valve)
3. Adjust fuel mixture and timing as needed
4. Do a compression test on all four cylinders
5. Rebuild the carbs if needed

If you're looking at pulling the motor, I have found that it is much easier to pull the head first, then the block. This will give you the opportunity to inspect the head without removing the lower end. If the problem is in the head and not in the lower end there's no reason to pull the block....just rebuild the head and replace it. If you find problems with the cylinder walls or if you suspect worn or frozen rings, worn bearings, or other problems you can then pull the block if needed.

[narfire]

Have you considered sourcing a 1800 head and having that machined and sorted ? Not sure if you have the stock 79 head on the engine.
Were the down-draughts 40's 0r 44's ?

I like the idea of a compression and/ or a leak down test as well before you go much further. I understand those can help with what state the internals are.

[DieselSpider]

If you have not gone through the ignition before doing anything too radical I would put in a new cap, rotor, spark plug wires and plugs (points and condenser too if not electronic) then set the timing and see how it runs. The carb will need some attention also however a heavy treatment of Berrymans Total Fuel System Treatment at 2 or 3 ounces per gallon of gasoline would be in order so a about 32 ounces to treat a fresh tank of gasoline.

For the other issues I have used Carol Shelby's ZMax with good results however you absolutely must run the engine to full operating temperature the moment you pour it in and then for a least 30 additional minutes or it will all be absorbed into the pan and maybe the oil pickup as it is a metal penetrant and not an oil treatment. If you just throw it in and leave it overnight or even a few hours or only run it in a minute or so you will be wasting the effort as it must be run in the full allotted time and then some. Don't be shocked if your oil turns black from all the carbon and dirt it releases from the valve train, piston rings and other engine parts. I have used it on engine we thought were going to need a full teardown and were really just suffering from sticky valves and rings from sitting inactive too long. The first car I treated with it we thought was a total loss but ran like new for an additional 50,000 miles until a Mack Truck totaled it still running like new.

[bradartigue]

Pull it. Remove the head, pull it out, clean it up, inspect everything, replace the seals and gaskets, hone the cylinder bores lightly, re-ring it, clean up the pistons, paint the block (gray), clean up the ancillaries, change the bearings and thrust washers, inspect the crank, etc.. It isn't hard to pull out a TC and you'll know more after you've done it than you can imagine.

[ga.spyder]

Jeff,I just pulled the head on my 82.For some reason the valve seals weren't healing themselves Contact Randy Beeken (Beek).He just did a complete service on my head.He is in Fla.,and is really reasonable.He is also one of the most knowledgable Fiat guys out there.Pull the head,ship it,and you will have it back in a week or so.

[zachmac]

Thanks to all for advise and encouragement. BTW, the carbs are twin 42 DCNFs, not IDFs. Is that a common setup?

[mscafide]

DCNF's are not common.

Brad is right, do it all AND "might as well" consider clutch, T/O bearing and maybe pressure plate.

Mike

[zachmac]

While I appreciate all of the advise and encouragement to jump in and "do it all", this isn't my first rodeo or first Fiat. I have already built many engines in my life and spent six years totally restoring every nut, bolt, washer, component, etc. from a bare metal tub up on a 70 E-type Jag so the learning and experience is not what I am after (although I certainly enjoy all of that). I am mostly interested in what I need to do to make it a smooth running, strong reliable car without going overboard and doing more than I need to do before getting back to the fun driving part.

That said I do indeed suffer from the where do you stop disease; I once went to remove a rusty trailer ball hitch from the rear bumper of a 62 Caddy convertible I owned and I finished 2 years later (all chrome, all suspension, tranny and engine rebuild, etc.). I just don't want this to turn into a major project BUT I think what I've heard so far makes sense. And yes, if I pull the block I will of course do clutch / pressure plate, TOB, etc. while I'm in there and make a decision on a lightened flywheel as well. I am just trying to plan on keeping it to a scale that gets me driving it this Spring instead of tearing it further apart. Guess I really won't know where the journey will lead until I begin walking though so I will just start in and see where it goes. That is after all part of the fun!

Oh yeah, so any thoughts advise on just sticking with the existing carbs (cleaned and refurbished) or swapping out? While the DCNFs aren't all that common they are what Ferrari Dinos, Maseratis, and lots of other period cars ran and these are at least real Italian Webers. I mean no reason they shouldn't work, correct? The down side being of course that if I am one of only a few people running them on a Spider it will be harder to find the right jetting / emulsion tube combos based on others experience.

[bradartigue]

DCNFs and an Alquati manifold were sold by (the original) Bayless for many years, are super reliable, and I find to be a far superior carburetor to IDFs. The tuning range is much better. You don't tune them any differently than other multi-carb setups - if you have them then you have a very nice configuration indeed.

As to the other comments, you know the drill, do what you want. I certainly suffer from the disease, but if you've been around the engines a few times then you know you can pull, clean, disassemble, and rebuild them in about a weeks time working in the evenings. You end up with a fresh engine that you've measured up and know won't suddenly start blasting out smoke because a ring failed. On the other hand, its more expensive and time consuming.

[sptcoupe]

I agree with Brad re the DCNFs. I've had them on a 131 and the coupe, and they are really sweet. The only issue you have with them on a longitudinally mounted engine (in 124s/131s) is when you are cornering a bit hard in a left hander, you will uncover the fuel pick ups and have a hard, but momentary, stumble.

DCNFs are much better suited to transverse mounted engines (X/19s/Lancia Scorpions), but they are great carbs and if you already have them, I would keep them.