Spiders and getting a PPI

[PetrolAppraiser]

Hey all,

Just wondering if PPI's on Spiders are a taboo subject? I'm getting dead communication lines with sellers when I mention it.I looked at aircooled 911's a few years ago and a PPI is about as natural as putting gas in the car. But when I mention to sellers I'd like to meet at a Fiat specialist in Upland (Mark!) at a convenient date for an inspection, I get dropped like a hot burrito. I've only had one person agree to it so far. What gives?! Could it be that I'm coming across every craigslist flipper out there?

-Colin

[SunnySideUp]

Depending on where the car is stored it may be an inconvenience for the owner to go the distance to the shop - it is LA after all and it is pretty spread out. They may agree to a PPI at a shop closer to them. There has to be a few Fiat-worthy mechanics out there that can perform a quality PPI for you, in addition to Mark. Make sure you check out the shop first and get some recommendations.

Then, there is always the case that the owner may just refuse a PPI altogether regardless of how convenient it is or who performs it. Run, don't walk away from such owners as they probably have something to hide.

There are those who will argue that a PPI isn't necessary on a 30+ year old car and that it's a waste of money. If you are well steeped in these cars and know what to look for in every nook and cranny they, yeah, do it yourself and save some money. But if this is your first foray into Spider ownership, then a PPI is worth it as long as it comes from someone who knows and works on Spiders.

[PetrolAppraiser]

Sunny, you're right - those that don't agree I assume have something to hide and don't want a professional finding it.

And you're right on the inconvenience, I should acquaint myself with a Fiat specialist closer to the beach and one in San Diego county, that way there'll be no excuses! Although, I do see the 'trial to shop' drive as a benchmark on the car's road worthiness in-and-of-itself.

[Fiatracertracer]

Pardon my ignorance but, what is a PPI?

[aj81spider]

PPI = pre purchase inspection

I used Google Maps and it looks like it's an hour and forty five minutes from San Diego to Upland. If I was selling a Fiat and someone wanted me to drive it over an hour each way for an inspection I wouldn't be too interested either. I'd let someone come take it, but it's one thing to be trying to sell a 30,000 Porsche and another a 3,000 Fiat. One might warrant taking time off work (unless your shop is open on Saturday) and wiping out half a day. The other certainly doesn't.

Just my opinion.

[DanD]

Well, as a 911 guy, I can say that I understand the concern, but in general, I think with a Fiat you need to go out and look at the car. You are only interested in buying a car you can drive, I am assuming, and you should be able to tell if it runs well by driving it. At least, you should be able to tell if it DOESN'T run well. It should start up with minimal smoke, and it should burn clean when warm. Clutch should have good bite, the gearbox should shift well in every gear, and the drive shaft should not have any clonks in it. A good spider should steer fairly well, and not pull if you brake hard. They are very smooth at speed.

You rarely see trouble with the cam shafts like you do with a 911, but you should always assume that the car needs a valve adjustment, unless the owner can prove otherwise. Assume that you WILL need a new timing belt, unless service records prove otherwise. If you are good with cars, You could do your own compression check. It is not uncommon to have burnt valve, or stuck rings. There are 4 ball joints on a spider, and 4 tie rod ends plus a center link. All the boots should be visible without jacking up the car. Unless the front end has been done, the rubber bushes usually don't look so great, but can sometimes still be serviceable. The drive shaft has two U joints and a center carrier bearing, which runs in a rubber hub that is often perished. All the electrical items in the car should work, and you should test everything. The wiring under the steering wheel often looks like it is hanging out, but it should all be intact, with no bad splices. Fried wires in the harness are not uncommon, so check everything. You really need to work every switch, and give a good visual inspection.

And then there is rust. Look for signs of bondo on the rear wheel arches. Run your hand on the inside of the wheel arch, and feel for rust. Don't cut your fingers, many cars have been repaired on the outside, but are still a mess on the inner rear arch. Also look for bondo and rust behind the front arches, and on the bottoms and sides of the front suspension turrets. If there is fresh looking undercoat on the turrets, look further. Under the hood, you should see a straight smooth side to each inner fender well, with a seam that runs from front to back just over the suspension turret. There should be no rust creeping from this seam, and no dent showing that the turrets have pushed in. If the car has no front fender liners, and pre 79 they did not, you should feel up around the front headlight nacelles. There should be no rust, and little dirt build up there. Rust can also take the floorboards to a very great extent, so look carefully, top and bottom. Really look the whole car over several times with a friend if possible. Be very wary of a fresh paint job. Also, be sure to check the driver's door for cracks behind the top hinge. make sure it closes smoothly. Check the hinges on the front hood as well. They often go un oiled, and can bind, resulting in the hinge trying to tear itself from the hood.

If you have looked at several 124s, and driven them, you should have some idea as to what a good one is. IF, at this point, you like the car, have driven it and think you want it, then you can talk about a deposit, and having a mechanic look at it. IMO, unless you are looking for a project car, you want a well maintained car that was owned by an enthusiast, or a completely original car. These are much cheaper cars to run than a 911, but sorting them out and fixing them up can be costly. Buying a car that is already ''done'' will always be cheaper, unless your labor is free.

There are really three kinds of 124s. The ones that have low miles and have never seen a bad day, the ones that have been restored, and the ones that have gone through periods of neglect, or have been owned by people who wanted a sports car. The last category of car has often been worked on by many people, and are apt to have had strange repairs. The middle category has some room for excellence, and some really well tarted up runners. Obviously, the best original cars can come with a premium.

Good luck with the search, and keep us posted.

[DanD]

FWIW, If I wanted a Fiat, I'd get around and start finding the Fiat guys in your area. There are still lots of good ones around, and if you have some Fiat buddies, you might get someone to walk around one with you.

I am a big advocate of the buddy system.

[toyfiats]

FWIW, If I wanted a Fiat, I'd get around and start finding the Fiat guys in your area. There are still lots of good ones around, and if you have some Fiat buddies, you might get someone to walk around one with you.

I am a big advocate of the buddy system.

+1. You are more likely to find a fellow Fiat owner that knows the cars to come help you look one over than find a shop that knows the cars well enough to make an inspection worthwhile. Even better if you can arrive together in a Fiat, so the seller knows he probably can't buffalo you with a bunch of bs.

[PetrolAppraiser]

FWIW, If I wanted a Fiat, I'd get around and start finding the Fiat guys in your area. There are still lots of good ones around, and if you have some Fiat buddies, you might get someone to walk around one with you.

I am a big advocate of the buddy system.

+1. You are more likely to find a fellow Fiat owner that knows the cars to come help you look one over than find a shop that knows the cars well enough to make an inspection worthwhile. Even better if you can arrive together in a Fiat, so the seller knows he probably can't buffalo you with a bunch of bs.

Dan, thank you for the awesome post very informative and insightful to these cars. I will remember it when checking out a car.

Sam/Dan, I'm on the lookout for locals! There doesn't seem to be much regular activity for SoCal in the event sub-forum and I'm having a helluva time finding anything regular or even recent through google. Any pointers on where about to go to find and connect with Spider owners?

Thanks again!

[Exit98]

Colin,

Like AJ said: "but it's one thing to be trying to sell a 30,000 Porsche and another a 3,000 Fiat."

Your PPI will more likely be done by you than by a mechanic. But that said, seeing the car on a lift and having the compression checked can be done by a friendly local mechanic who doesn't need to be a Spider expert. And you'll quickly learn what to look for. Look under the carpet by the pedals, if its an original car there will be rust there, just a question of how much. If it's been "restored" you'll be able to tell.

The best and easiest way to check for external body rust is a refrigerator magnet. You know the one with the pizza delivery phone number. If it slides off the wheel arches and rocker panels there's no metal underneath.

You have to check the shock towers which isn't easy. Take off the front wheels and get good light. They rust from the inside out so try to peer down into the openings from inside the engine compartment. Poking around with a screwdriver helps. On the bulkhead in the well behind the seats are the anchor points for the rear trailing arns. You don't want to find significant rust there either. You can see the front and rear footwells from under the car too.

If the body is "really" sound and you like the car then you are about 80% there. Anything mechanical or the interior can be fixed or replaced. Buy it already done (cheaper) or do it yourself later.

Good luck and let us know.

[baltobernie]

Unless you are planning on restoring the car, you probably aren't going to be happy with a $3000 anything. Think about it; how many people do you think are looking to sell a well-running, reliable, vintage roadster in SoCal for $3k? Yeah, there are always the divorces, relocations, etc., but if you asked all the members on this forum if they would sell their well-running, etc. Spider for three grand, you'd probably get no takers. I'm not saying $3kW/R aren't out there, but particularly in mild climates, there probably aren't that many bargains (and plenty of beaters) at that price point.

May I suggest you wait three short weeks. We'll walk around BOFI, and you'll become well-acquainted with the various Spider iterations and be able to narrow your focus. You'll almost be able to do your own PPI by the end of the day.

[aj81spider]

Can't speak for the SoCal market (although there are a good number of Spiders on Craigslist for under $5000 in LA), but in Massachusetts I bought a solid running '74 for $3000. I overpaid for my first Fiat (an '81) and paid $4500. When I sold it it took 18 months and several price reductions until it finally went - also at $3000.

We could probably have a long thread about Spider pricing, but it would have to be a pretty special car for me to pay more than five or six thousand for one.

That said I agree - patience and having someone who knows the cars come with you will get you a good car at a reasonable price.

[Exit98]

Here is a nice SoCal car.

Why not take a look at it, it might be what you are looking for. If not it could serve as a benchmark when looking at others.

http://www.fiatspider.com/f08/viewtopic ... 10&t=28640