Restoration Cost (long)

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baltobernie
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Posts: 3466
Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:00 pm
Your car is a: 1973 Spider [sold]
Location: Baltimore, MD

Restoration Cost (long)

Post by baltobernie »

I guess every new Spider owner wonders what it will cost to get his/her car to that level of appearance, reliability and performance. If you are thinking of buying, refurbishing or restoring a Fiat Spider, my recent experience may benefit you.

My last two Fiats were purchased new in the 1970's. I've never restored a car before. I wasn't initially looking for a Spider - just a small convertible that my wife & I could cruise when the weather was right. American compact convertibles have been swept up in the car craze fueled by boomers like myself. How about $12k for a Comet, Falcon or Dart convertible, Level 3 or 4? You can forget about Chevy II's and Malibu's. Popular-priced British cars never appealed to me, and Alfas are too expensive, particularly parts.

I'm reasonably handy with tools, and I have a pretty complete selection of them, from air tools to a MIG welder. Dedicated garage space was also available. I really didn't look at too many Spiders before my purchase on Christmas Day, 2007. Although I would later discover a large contingent of Fiat owners in the DC area, most of my searching was on eBay, Craigs List, and Hemmings. In retrospect, the old adage, "Buy the best car you can find - let the previous owner sink his thousands into restoration" has proven to be true. On the other hand, I could have paid $8000 for a car and still replaced the alternator, transmission, etc. in the next 12 months.

I wanted a pre-emissions, pre-bumper car, and paid $1100 for a 1973 model on eBay, after failing to win a few others, most notably several West Coast cars that appeared to be pristine for $6-7k. I drove the car around the block before completing the sale. The eBay listing is no longer active, but the car was a typical $1-2k example, with some minor collision damage, which became a lot more than minor, with a dented (leaking) fuel tank, and bumper mounting points that took lots of hours to repair and modify. Same thing with the minor dent in the oil pan, which broke the oil pickup and may require a bottom-end rebuild. The top was shot, but the interior was very good, previously restored, and the body passed the "magnet test" everywhere.

My goal was to make Gina a "driver" this year, with cosmetic and performance improvements in 2009, if the cruising experience met our expectations. To that end, I wanted peace-of-mind electricals and safety items. I was expecting to replace most of the gaskets, hoses, belts, and other rubber items, including tires. Rebuilt alternator, starter, new battery, cables, plug wires, etc. Transmission turned out to be trashed; got a used one locally. Resurfacing of exhaust manifold, couple of Helicoils, other minor machine shop work. Every exterior lamp and lens was replaced.

What I found happening was that I would remove one part or assembly, and rationalize/justify replacing the part underneath. It would have been a lot easier to do the restoration like you see on TV, where they disassemble the entire car and remanufacture it. Based upon this experience, I would say that it would cost $15-20k on top of a rust-free straight car to build a Level 1 pre-1974 car.

Here are the results. Five months mostly full-time (including time on FiatSpider.com!) either repairing or learning about the car. I am fortunate to have local assistance from DC Fiat club members; otherwise the costs would have been substantially higher. For example, I wasn't planning on replacing the transmission, but the same club guy gave me a good used top gratis. So maybe you won't need to replace your tranny, but you might need a $400 top.
  • car $1100
    salvage parts $440
    Fiat vendors (Bayless, Bruce, etc.) $1800
    other parts suppliers (Advance, NAPA, etc.) $1700
    auto body supplies $950
    tools and supplies (Harbor, Sears, etc.) $450
    mechanical subs (machine shop, alignment, etc.) $850
    auto body subcontracting $950
    hardware store (fasteners, supplies, etc.) $250
    total $8490
A word about paint. This falls into the category of "since I'm already repairing/replacing X, I might as well ..." I did find a few small rust spots under filler, so I decided to go ahead and finish the exterior. Part of the justification was the very good interior. It just didn't make sense to spend $6500 and have a rough-looking car in Cadillac paint.

So now I have a refurbished/restored Spider that still needs several thousand dollars worth of work to make it a Level 2 car. Rechroming the bumpers - $2k Rebuilding engine and transmission with "street performance" upgrades - $3k Rebuilding front and rear suspension, including bushings, shocks, hey might as well do calipers and rotors too - $1k. You can see how this adds up. I'm not trying to discourage you, but I never expected to spend $250 at the local hardware store!

The way I'm looking at this experience is to compare the finished product to what I see on the road; what else could I have done with $8500? A 2000-2005 Miata? Certainly a much better choice for a "daily driver", but hardly without maintenance issues at 40-80k miles. Thing is, I don't need a daily driver; the incremental cost of owing Gina is only $26 in tags and $162 in insurance per year. One thing is certain: Spider owners have something Miata/Solstice/Mini owners will never experience; people smile when they see an Italian work of art. Tjaarda's 40-year-old design just keeps looking better and better. Kind of like a Courtney Thorne-Smith on wheels. Contemporary drivers have no idea what it feels like to drive a car whose steering wheel is directly connected to the tires. Whose throttle pedal is directly connected to the accelerator pump. And that $25k Solstice in a few years will be worth less than your Spider.
Last edited by baltobernie on Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
kristoj
Posts: 909
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:26 am
Your car is a: 1982 Fiat Spider 2000 Turbo
Location: Ohio

Re: Restoration Cost (long)

Post by kristoj »

Having owned several "collector cars", I agree that it is usually financially advantageous to purchase a car that is already restored -- with one major caveat. You better know who did the restoration and have documentation as to exactly what was done. My preference is to find a car that is as original as possible and in decent condition (unrestored). The major advantage to the approach you have taken is twofold. First, you did the work so you know what was done, and you know it was done right. Second, Fiat Spiders are not yet at a point in the appreciation curve where full on professional restorations can be financially justified. Most restorations are done by owners (often original) for sentimental purposes. The challenge with that is these owners typically don't sell the cars after restoration. So the available pool of restored cars is very limited.

Finally, once you get a car into solid driver territory, you can enjoy it while you improve it's condition over time -- a so-called rolling restoration. I find this is the most rewarding, because I can gradually improve my car at my own pace without being overwhelmed by spending every waking hour and every available dollar to get it finished so I can drive it. Makes for a happier marriage too :D
John
'82 Fiat Spider Turbo
'56 Abarth 750 GT Corsa MM
'59 Lancia Appia GTE Zagato
'62 Lancia Flaminia 2.5 3C Convertible
'68 Lancia Fulvia Sport Zagato
'70 Moretti Sportiva S2
'12 Abarth 500
'59 MV Agusta 250 Raid


Pictures of my baby!
mdrburchette
Posts: 5754
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 5:49 am
Your car is a: 1972 Fiat 124 Sport
Location: Winston-Salem, NC

Re: Restoration Cost (long)

Post by mdrburchette »

I've spent quite a bit on my 72 over the last 14 years, but I don't regret a penny of it. The experience has left me not only with a sense of accomplishment and pride, but it has made me appreciate my little Italian car for what it is.
1972 124 Spider (Don)
1971 124 Spider (Juan)
1986 Bertone X19 (Blue)
1978 124 Spider Lemons racer
1974 X19 SCCA racer (Paul)
2012 500 Prima Edizione #19 (Mini Rossa)
Ever changing count of parts cars....It's a disease!
baltobernie
Patron 2020
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Posts: 3466
Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:00 pm
Your car is a: 1973 Spider [sold]
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Restoration Cost (long)

Post by baltobernie »

Good points.

There was a posting elsewhere about the "danger" of restoring Spiders for that very reason; that they were inexpensive enough to acquire so everybody who knows which end of a screwdriver to hold (including me) thinks they can restore one, and guys like Mark end up scratching their heads in amazement at the result. So maybe it is the more prudent choice to buy one rough and start from scratch.

I did have a local Fiat mechanic go over the car, and he found/corrected several things that all of the "restorations" (including mine) missed.
Darsella1

Re: Restoration Cost (long)

Post by Darsella1 »

You forgot about painting things, anti-rust & coatings! I have spend a ton on paint, coatings and POR!

I don't know if I can actually admit how much I will spend on a full restoration on my car (the 1985.5). It didn't start out that way, but if we had to strip it 98% then I figured I might as well do it all, including a full engine and electrical rebuild. Let's just say I have a feeling it will be in the 20K when it's done. Serious ouch? Yep. Will it ever be worth what I spent? Nope. Could I have bought a really nice something else? Oh hell yeah! I have been brought to tears with how expensive and time consuming it has been. I have put every dime I can pull out of my rear into it. All I can say is that you better look at it not as an overall investment to make money, but as an investment in the car you want to keep. I had horses for years and they are a huge, huge monthly expense that you will never get back. I look at both as a hobby that you enjoy and if you want it to stay nice, you will have to pay for it up front or later. I have a whole new appreciation when I go to shows now.

I am hoping I can at least inspire other people with the amount of work I have gone through in saving both of the cars I owned. I have already gotten quite a few "how can you spent that much on a car that is not worth it?" I just tell them "yes it is, because it's what really makes me happy". Also, as my finance points out, it's peanuts compared to what people spend on American muscle cars. I dread the day we start on his Camaro.

In my opinion (of course) Miata's are a dime a dozen. They have no soul, history or collectability factor. Like everyone else said, no other car can put a smile on your face like a Fiat.
baltobernie
Patron 2020
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Posts: 3466
Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:00 pm
Your car is a: 1973 Spider [sold]
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Restoration Cost (long)

Post by baltobernie »

I put a grocery bag next to the garage door, and made a point of dropping receipts into in upon arrival home. So I think I the subtotals are rather accurate, although I've already remembered a few Internet items, etc. that didn't make it onto the spreadsheet.

Experts tell newbies "Collect what makes you happy, not what you think you'l make money on", and that certainly applies to us here. BTW, I think your Camaro restoration will be a snap compared to the Fiat! You probably know that you can buy virtually every piece of those cars from a catalog; if you had a VIN number, you could make one never built by Chevrolet!

Left-side tail lamp lens for Camaro: $12.50
Left-side tail lamp lens (4 pcs.) for Spider: $93.50

Camaro oil pump: $27.50
Fiat oil pump: $120

... and the list goes on. I want to say that I didn't compile these numbers to brag or to set a resale value, but to demonstrate that the notion of a $2000 Spider may be a fantasy. I'd hate for someone to start in on a project, spend all their available money, and still be thousands away from a reliable, safe car.
mbouse

Re: Restoration Cost (long)

Post by mbouse »

baltobernie wrote: but I never expected to spend $250 at the local hardware store!
i admire your patience, and the results of your labor.

I chose to do a rolling restoration so that my family could enjoy the car for a long, long time as i worked on it. the results of that choice seems to have worked for us, but i don't know where to draw the line on restoration costs. i never dreamed i could find so many things at the local hardware store that support this project. but hey, it is my hobby too.

Under $10k and a good looking car to boot! congrats...
JeremyB

Re: Restoration Cost (long)

Post by JeremyB »

Great thread! I paid $3500 for mine. Got it from a very respected person within our Fiat community. It is exactly what I wanted, basically stock, decent shape, needed TLC, but solid. it well on its way, but still needs more TLC and alot more money. I'm right at $5k invested in the car. This covers teh cost of teh car, new front end, tune up, some cosmetic bits and so on). It has become a pretty reliable frequent driver.
I still need to do some body work. Im startign to read up on that to figure out if I want to tackel some of the easier stuff before gettting it painted.
I know the car will never be show car quality. I dont want that. I want a clean, neat spider taht I can enjoy. This allows me the freedom top do what ever I want with it.
Im guessing, by the time Im finished with it.......well it never be "finished" (none of them are) I'll probably be somewhere around $8-10K. Fine with me. Even if it goes over $14k, where else can we get our hands on a clean, nice, unique, classic, italian convertible for that cost that turns heads every time you drive it?
kristoj
Posts: 909
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:26 am
Your car is a: 1982 Fiat Spider 2000 Turbo
Location: Ohio

Re: Restoration Cost (long)

Post by kristoj »

I agree. I paid $6,500 for mine -- a documented 2-owner 1982 Spider Turbo with 36,000 orginal miles and absolutely no rust. In the first year of owning it, I have dropped probably around 4 grand in mostly refurbishing the mechanicals. The thing about a 36,000 mile car is that it spent too much time sitting idle allowing every seal, gasket, hose, belt or other pliable part to dry out and harden. The paint/body is great from 10 feet away, but has it's share of dings/chips/scratches from 20+ years spent mostly in storage. I would like to paint it at some point. But the interior is original and near perfect.

When I got the car it was leaking engine oil from the distributor, cam covers and turbo. The rear diff was spewing oil out the pinion seal all over the bottom of the car and the transimission had a minor leak at the rear shaft seal. The intake hose to the turbo had a massive hole in the side and the exhaust mainfold gasket was leaking. So I ended up replacing nearly all of the engine gaskets/seals, rebuilt the distributor, new plugs/wires/cap/rotor, all new calipers/rotors at all four corners, master cylinder, all new belts and hoses (including brake hoses, fuel hoses and vacuum lines), fuel injector seals, injectors professionally cleaned, timing belt, water pump (a "while you're at it item), all new tie rods, center link, upper and lower control arms, shocks and wheel bearings. And last, but certainly not least (most expensive single item), I sent the turbo out for a rebuild. I installed a new pinion seal in the rear end, but still haven't attacked the tranny leak. I am thinking of just taking the tranny out and rebuilding it over the winter. I also put a set of new tires on the car -- the old ones had plenty of tread, but were dry rotted and cracking from age. I'm sure I am forgetting a bunch of stuff, but it all adds up to just over $4,000 in parts. The couple hundred hours of labor donated by yours truly.

But it isn't about making money. I have truly enjoyed working on the car and now I can drive it with confidence. And I don't think I would take a bath if I had to sell it either. Everyone has a "vice" or hobby of some sort that they blow money on (and which makes them happy). Mine has always been cars!
John
'82 Fiat Spider Turbo
'56 Abarth 750 GT Corsa MM
'59 Lancia Appia GTE Zagato
'62 Lancia Flaminia 2.5 3C Convertible
'68 Lancia Fulvia Sport Zagato
'70 Moretti Sportiva S2
'12 Abarth 500
'59 MV Agusta 250 Raid


Pictures of my baby!
Darsella1

Re: Restoration Cost (long)

Post by Darsella1 »

I would love to have the link to the other post, I find this topic also interesting and then I don't feel so bad. Mine was rough alright!

Oh, he has it so easy with the Camaro. It's nice when you can buy a complete kit of something and not have to search for metric screws, calling & emailing for the very last dusty part or ripping stuff off of parts cars. But it won't be THAT easy. He wants it to be exactly like the car in the Better Off Dead movie. Right down to each tiny little bolt. His new seat belts were $500! That was his Christmas present that he had to have. Hey- at least we can give each other car parts for Christmas & birthdays!
Darsella1

Re: Restoration Cost (long)

Post by Darsella1 »

Here's before and after as far as the recently added engine bay project. I could not simply put that beautiful engine back into that nastyness and the cowl had to be redone anyway. So again, one expensive & labor intensive "might as well" item we added to the list. It was a bigger and more time consuming project than we thought as it required a lot of prep, cleaning and sanding. I even had to paint POR up in the very cracks of the headlights and as a result, had POR smears all over my arms and several spider bites. Ray did the rest.

Image

Image

The bottom half is POR and the top half is the matching body paint. When I said I my car was pickled in it I was not kidding and that stuff is expensive.
miragesmack

Re: Restoration Cost (long)

Post by miragesmack »

"Collect what makes you happy, not what you think you'l make money on"

Nice quote, and your car looks nice. I crunched numbers last week for a few cars I am looking at. A list of everything I wanted to add to each car, assuming a stock car, with paint job etc. The Fiat came in the cheaper of the two, at around $15,000+-$4,000. They other came in over $20K, mainly due to having more aftermarket performance items available, and they aren't cheap.

On the surface, I should certainly look for a restored car, but then I wouldn't enjoy a car if I knew there was another exactly like it somewhere in the world, so I would prefer to build my own so to speak.

I lose money on almost every car, but I rationalize things by knowing my 67 GTO conv will offset all my other car losses if I ever sell it. I always make money on that car, whenever I sell parts, etc. It's worth 6-10 times what I have in it.
Leesfer

Re: Restoration Cost (long)

Post by Leesfer »

Wait wait wait... did you just say you intend to pay 15000 for a fiat spider?
miragesmack

Re: Restoration Cost (long)

Post by miragesmack »

No, I wouldn't pay upfront for one, but I would easily put that into it over time. I just can't so no to cool parts when I start a project.
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