anti freeze causing corrosion

Keep it on topic, it will make it easier to find what you need.
geoff
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Your car is a: 1982 Spider

Re: anti freeze causing corrosion

Post by geoff »

I've tried everything gto - but cannot get it to work
I finally got to the RR site vian another route - but this document will not open.
Did you JUST try it using the link you gave me - and did the pdf load?
I really would like to read it - if I can
thanks
geoff
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4uall
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Your car is a: 1980 Fiat Pininfarina Spider 2000 F.I.
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

Re: anti freeze causing corrosion

Post by 4uall »

Coolants for All Motor Cars, with Special Relevance to Cars with Wet Cylinder Liners
Especially Rolls-Royce Phantom III, Silver Cloud II, III, SY and SZ Models
COOLANTS - This is a WARNING to ALL OWNERS
By Stephe Boddice, September 2007 - July 2008
Conclusions within this article are made with the reservation that they are my opinions only, that many
statements relate purely to my own experiences, and that any remedial action taken by owners is at their own
risk. Certain information has been withheld from the article for legal reasons.
In July 2006 I serviced my Phantom III. The engine on this car had been totally rebuild, by me, in
2003 and, following a complete restoration of the rest of the vehicle, it won First Prize in the PIII
class at the RREC National in 2005. The point being that the whole vehicle is in 90+ point condition.
The coolant was two years old and therefore ready for replacement. My local auto spares store, part
of a national (UK) chain, was out of stock of the standard own-brand antifreeze but was fully
stocked with their own-brand 'Advanced Coolant'. The information on the label quoted the usual
compliance numbers, offered extended coolant life, better anti-corrosion protection and stated
that the product was suitable for older engines. On that basis, following a cooling system flush, I
decided to use the new coolant.
After about 4 weeks I noticed damp patches on the floor beneath the engine. Further investigation
revealed that coolant was leeching from almost every possible joint: both radiator top hoses, both
radiator bottom hoses, the Calorstat joint in the header tank, drain tap joint in the bottom tank
plus the weep holes in the block. Tightening joints and hose clips had no effect. My bodily fluids
started to threaten sympathetic reaction with the coolant.
The new coolant was drained off, all hoses were replaced with new items and leaking gaskets
replaced; obviously, the liner 'O' rings were left in situ pending further investigations. The engine
was thoroughly flushed three times and the coolant replaced with a known standard anti-freeze
from a different supplier. The result was that all of the coolant leaks stopped immediately.
Unfortunately, after driving the car, there was evidence that minute amounts of oil had started to
seep from at least three of the weep holes. Bearing in mind that this a concours’ standard car, the
result was not entirely satisfactory.
Cutting a very long story short, I spent 5 months attempting to get the retailers to provide technical
information of any changes made to the formulation of the 'Advanced' coolant compared with their
previous offering. This process went through the usual steps of stonewalling, denial,
acknowledgement of changes, admission of known problems and culminated with them blaming me
for using their product without the manufacturer's recommendation. At this point I escalated the
problem and am now in discussions at Board level within the company, which is, in turn, making the
manufacturer (one of GB's main producers) provide evidence of the product's suitability or
otherwise.
It turns out that the 'Advanced' coolant is manufactured using an Organic Acid Technology (OAT)
corrosion inhibitor pack. The previous anti-freeze used an Inorganic Additive Technology (IAT).
Evidence supplied to the retailer by the manufacturer admits that the OAT inhibited coolant is
known to cause leak problems even in engines that do not use wet liners. The major fault with the
inhibitor being that it attacks, amongst other things, silicone compounds. The most commonly used
base compound for gasket sealants is silicone.
The immediate problem to the buying public is that the manufacturers and retailers are failing to
disclose which inhibitor technology is being incorporated in their coolants/anti-freezes . Anybody
replacing their coolant MUST investigate with the manufacturer which system is employed. It
appears that OAT, and even HOAT (Hybrid OAT), inhibited coolant can be supplied under the same
national compliance standard codes as the earlier IAT technology.
To date, the industry has overlooked the volume/number of old car users who may inadvertently
buy their products and the potential risks that this consumption represents. In 2006 there was a
survey conducted relating to the 'old car' movement and its contribution to the EU economy. In the
UK this was co-ordinated by the Federation of British Historic Vehicle Clubs (FBHVC), which is an
umbrella body, funded by all of the recognised auto clubs, to fight poorly drafted EU automotive
regulations that may accidentally drive old cars off the road. The findings, for the UK alone, were
that this business sector contributed £2 billion (say $3.8 billion) to the UK economy alone. If the
coolant manufacturers and retailers carelessly move to OAT inhibitors without considering the
ramifications on the old car sector they may find that class actions through the courts will damage
their Balance Sheets as much as these products do our old engines.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
UPDATE (ORIGINALLY DRAFTED 13TH SEPTEMBER 2007)
Well, folks, this has been a long time coming but the situation has eventually been resolved. For
those who had the patience to follow this saga from its inception I can now give the definitive
answer, which is: -
DO NOT USE OAT INHIBITED COOLANT IN YOUR ENGINE!
I eventually had a meeting with the National Technical Manager of the OAT coolant manufacturer.
He was categoric in his statement that this 'technology' is inappropriate for use in any Rolls-Royce or
Bentley engine other than the latest Bentley GT and Goodwood Phantom. NO 'IFS' and NO 'BUTS'!
Glossary of inhibitor terminology: -
IAT = Inorganic Additive Technology
OAT = Organic Acid Technology
HOAT = Hybrid Organic Acid Technology
The officially recommended coolant for V8 engines is a 50/50 solution of water and ICI 007/400F
antifreeze. The latter is still available from any Official Bentley Main Dealer - see
http://www.bentleymotors.com for contact details.
Changeover history: -
Car manufacturers.
The major car manufacturers were looking for improved coolant performance with, amongst other
needs, extended product life. Engine designs were changed, including new seals, sealants and
gaskets being introduced on a model by model basis. The manufacturers started selectively to
introduce OAT coolants from about 1995 and virtually all engines manufactured since 2005 are now
compliant with this technology.
Coolant manufacturers.
The primary impetus for the coolant manufacturers is to satisfy the needs of their main customers
who are the car manufacturers. The secondary action is to then provide the after-market retailers
with the same products so the market can continue to function. 'Old cars', in the eyes of both are
deemed to be vehicles up to about 12 years old, this being the national average vehicle life in both
the USA and Europe.
No consideration is given to vehicles of a greater age. The decline in the retail sales of IAT coolants
is taken as an indication of falling demand despite the fact that the retailers are encouraged to
promote H/OAT coolant. General ignorance of the product differences has not been considered,
whether this related to the DIY mechanic or non-franchise auto shop operatives. Unless specific
demands are made, by owners of really old cars, IAT coolants will soon be removed from the
marketplace.
Summary: -
The old car movement in Europe has, fortunately, organised a strong lobbying group as a defence
against EU bureaucratic stupidity. The EU legislation drafting machine is constantly putting forward
proposals that would inadvertently remove old cars from the road. Representation has stopped this
by providing accurate data on the contribution that this group of people make to the various
national economies.
When the coolant manufacturer's representative was presented with a copy of the 2005 report he
was astounded, not least by the apparent lost opportunity.
Result: -
1) The coolant manufacturer has undertaken to change its own and its retailers' labelling to
emphasise the unsuitability of OAT in 'old cars'. At the same time it will clarify or reword its
definition of 'old car'.
2) My issue was resolved without recourse the courts, thus depriving the legal profession of a small
income.
3) My car has regained its continence.
4) The coolant manufacturer may actually start to market IAT directly at the owners of those cars
that need it.
YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!!!
© 2008 SB http://www.boddice.co.uk
Republished Jan 2 2009 by http://www.rrtechnical.info with many thanks to, and permission by, Stephe Boddice rht V1.1
Jay

Fiona
1980 FI 2000 Spider
ITZEBTZE

https://goo.gl/photos/eNKaX7hrXhBu9fmp6

FINN (FN-2187)
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GTO
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Location: UK

Re: anti freeze causing corrosion

Post by GTO »

Thanks for that 4ual. Googling OAT/IAT fluid brings up lots more results confirming the RR posters findings. OAT fluid does not like the alloys used pre around 1993.
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4uall
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Your car is a: 1980 Fiat Pininfarina Spider 2000 F.I.
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

Re: anti freeze causing corrosion

Post by 4uall »

Somebody had to :wink: No problem :mrgreen:
Jay

Fiona
1980 FI 2000 Spider
ITZEBTZE

https://goo.gl/photos/eNKaX7hrXhBu9fmp6

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majicwrench

Re: anti freeze causing corrosion

Post by majicwrench »

Not impressed with that article, he is blaming his coolant for the leaks at his hoses?? I see cars every day that have weeping from where coolant hosed join black radiator etc. Usually after someone replaces them, and doesn't get clamps tight.

Will admit I quit reading after that. Better things to do.
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4uall
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Your car is a: 1980 Fiat Pininfarina Spider 2000 F.I.
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Re: anti freeze causing corrosion

Post by 4uall »

Pssssssssssssssst :| I never even read it :shock:
Jay

Fiona
1980 FI 2000 Spider
ITZEBTZE

https://goo.gl/photos/eNKaX7hrXhBu9fmp6

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2014 Jeep Wrangler Sport
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4uall
Posts: 4145
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Your car is a: 1980 Fiat Pininfarina Spider 2000 F.I.
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Re: anti freeze causing corrosion

Post by 4uall »

Last edited by 4uall on Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jay

Fiona
1980 FI 2000 Spider
ITZEBTZE

https://goo.gl/photos/eNKaX7hrXhBu9fmp6

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ScotcH
Posts: 100
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Location: Ottawa, ON

Re: anti freeze causing corrosion

Post by ScotcH »

BMW is adamant about using only BMW coolant ... and it's blue. Not sure what changed, but try a BMW dealer, they might have the "good" stuff.
8legs Racing - BMW Parts and Performance
- 1978 Fiat Spider (plus 73 and 74 parts cars)
- 2008 BMW M3
- 2003 BMW X5 4.4
- 2000 BMW 330i race car
geoff
Posts: 123
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Your car is a: 1982 Spider

Re: anti freeze causing corrosion

Post by geoff »

excellent article. thanks for fining it / reproducing it for me.
I don't have a RR or even a Bentley - but for sure after replacing the anti freeze in mt 124 two years ago - I got leaks everywhere and my thermostat has dissintegrated, there is corrosion everywhere and I had to get the radiator rebuilt.
I ask again, is anyone here using the waterless product from Evans ?
MadBeez
Posts: 70
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Your car is a: 1971 124 Spider 1608
Location: Lee NH

Re: anti freeze causing corrosion

Post by MadBeez »

Here's an article from Hemmings about all the different coolants: http://www.hemmings.com/hmn/stories/200 ... ure20.html
72 124 spi bought new - the carcass is buried in the backyard
71 spi swapped drivetrain from 72 - sold in 88
71 coupe - traded for new Lancia
77 Lancia Beta Saloon
71 1608 spider - impulse buy - project
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KidDingo
Posts: 175
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Your car is a: 1981 Fiat Spider 2000 FI 5-spd
Location: Edmonton, AB, Canada

Re: anti freeze causing corrosion

Post by KidDingo »

Apologies for being late to this conversation, but thought it might be worthwhile pointing out that the owner's manual for the '81 Spiders specifies:

"...a 50-50 mixture of water and Paraflu 11 fluid (or equivalent)".

A quick search of Paraflu 11 shows Petronas makes it, and it's a "concentrated ethylene glycol" that protects against freezing (to -40C), scaling, corrosion of metal parts - iron, copper, and aluminium - and over-bulking (whatever that is!) of rubber and plastic parts.

I have been running ethylene glycol at 100% with no issues (knock on wood). Having discovered this, though, I'll be adding water, tomorrow. It's not like I run it in the Siberian-like Canadian winters, anyway. And i'ts stored in a heated garage, so I think it'll be OK with water in it.
_______________________________________________
Michael
1981 Fiat Spider 2000 FI
geoff
Posts: 123
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:19 pm
Your car is a: 1982 Spider

Re: anti freeze causing corrosion

Post by geoff »

yes, I saw that in my owners book too. Problem is that when that was written these new anti freezes were not in existence.
Anyway, I have now found a supply of 100% Ethyline glycol so I have mixed that 50/50 with deionised water and so far all seems well !
regards
to all
geoff
Corydon
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Your car is a: 1974 CS-1 US
Location: Ry, Denmark

Re: anti freeze causing corrosion

Post by Corydon »

I have had a close read of what Petronas writes about Paraflu, which is what FIAT recommends. As far as I can see "Paraflu11" is the good old stuff that contains inorganic inhibitors. The color is blue or greenish blue. This is what we should use. They also have a product called "Paraflu11 UP" which is the modern version with Organic Acid Technology (OAT) inhibitors. The color is red. This stuff should NOT be used in our old engines according to the RR article and other sources I have found.

As far as I can gather from various sources; if it's blue it's OK, if it's red or yellow it's not OK. But I think this can only be used as a general rule of thumb.
74 FIAT 124 Spider CS-1 (US-Model)
wizard124
Posts: 752
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Your car is a: 1980 124 spider FI
Location: Sheridan, WY exSan Rafael, CA

Re: anti freeze causing corrosion

Post by wizard124 »

[quote="KidDingo I have been running ethylene glycol at 100% with no issues (knock on wood). Having discovered this, though, I'll be adding water, tomorrow. It's not like I run it in the Siberian-like Canadian winters, anyway. And i'ts stored in a heated garage, so I think it'll be OK with water in it.[/quote]

A point I remember from my high school auto shop days is: Ethylene glycol has worse heat transfer properties than water, that is why the 50/50 mix is recommended.
geoff
Posts: 123
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:19 pm
Your car is a: 1982 Spider

Re: anti freeze causing corrosion

Post by geoff »

I am in agreement with all of this - but beware - the colour is no guide any more. There is no universal agreed colour coding for antifreeze.
Get the manufacturer's data sheet (easy off the internet) and see what it contains.
I am in France and just obtained some 100% glycol ethynene from a French oil company - coloured very light green.
In Uk you can get Bluecol ( which is blue). And I am sure in USA there are many more options.
regards
geoff
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