The Frustration is Getting to Me! Help.

[LISpider]

Here is the problem. I have a 1980 Fiat Spider 2000 FI that was running fine. The other week, after taking it out of the garage winter storage, it started right up and was running fine. The car idled for about 10-15 minutes and then stalled out. I went to start it again and now it will only crank and not turn over. I do not hear the fuel pump engaging. I have checked the spark, grounds, fuses, the AFM flap, the fuel pump and the dual relay. All check out, but I cannot get the car to start. I am a novice with auto repairs and am quickly coming up against my threshold of what I feel comfortable working on. Before I throw in the towel and trailer it to a local shop, I thought I would give the forum a shot. Any thoughts? Anyone local on Long Island (Huntington area) and feel like coming by for a look? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

[wizard124]

P

I do not hear the fuel pump engaging. I have checked the spark, grounds, fuses, the AFM flap, the fuel pump and the dual relay. All check out, but I cannot get the car to start.

Not sure I understand where you are in your troubleshooting. The fuel pump does not work when the key is turned but it works when you jump it directly...is this correct?

There is an in-line fuse in a separate holder that powers the fuel pump. Have you checked this fuse?

Disconnect the plug to the temp sensor in the coolant T at the front of the engine. Measure resistance across the 2 sensor electrodes. If it is infinite, this is probably your problem.

Pull off the fuel line to the Cold Start Valve. Check for good flow when the starter is engaged. Read pressure if you have a gage you can plug in, should be 38 -40 psi. Plugged filter? Bad pump?

Do thes steps. If the car still doesn't start then come back for more troubleshooting help.

[narfire]

Can't hear the pump running.... a couple of things.. It will switch on when the flap in the AFM is moved (ignition on of course)
If it is not doing that I'd check a couple of things: the ground to the pump is connected to the rear driver side tail light assembly, check that. The other is direct wire the pump to a 12V source and see if it runs then. If not....

[81SPIDERMATT]

I am also a bit confused ... could you elaborate on how you checked things ... also I did not see in your post where you confirmed fuel ????

[LISpider]

Can't hear the pump running.... a couple of things.. It will switch on when the flap in the AFM is moved (ignition on of course)
If it is not doing that I'd check a couple of things: the ground to the pump is connected to the rear driver side tail light assembly, check that. The other is direct wire the pump to a 12V source and see if it runs then. If not....

the pump will turn on when i manually engage the AFM. it just doesn't seem to engage when i turn the ignition on.

[LISpider]

I am also a bit confused ... could you elaborate on how you checked things ... also I did not see in your post where you confirmed fuel ????

thanks. there is good fuel in the car...again it ran for 15 minutes or so before stalling out. i gave the fuses a visual check and replaced if needed. i did replace the inline fuse for the pump just to be on the safe side as it was probably as old as the car. the fuel pump runs when directly connected to a battery, the dual relay is new. the spark was checked with a spark plug "test light" and the grounds were visually inspected and checked with a test light. i noticed that the pump will run if i "reverse" the connectors on the relay, but it will not turn off. do you know if the pump will continue to run until the pressure is up in the fuel line?

[ORFORD2004]

The pump should run for 1 or 2 sec when you turn the switch on and then start when the AFM flap move.

[wizard124]

The fuel pump is energized 2 ways:
1) With the key turned to START, the pump is hot;
2) when the key is returned to RUN, the pump is hot through the AFM contacts and dual relay.

Have you checked for fuel flow when you crank the engine? If not, you need to check the circuit. The pump runs contuously(in RUN and the AFM opening), there isn't a pressure switch to turn the pump on/off.

[spider2081]

The pump does not shut off when pressure it met. It should run continuously with the AFM flap open. The extra fuel is simply returned to the tank.
You said you have checked the grounds. Does this includes the fuel pump ground in the trunk??
Have you connected your test light to the fuel pump wires at the pump when the pump is connected and expected to be running?? One lead from test light to each pump wire.

[toplessexpat]

If the pump is all well and good (assuming the electrics check out, and the pump is pumping and appropriate pressure!), and have checked the in line filter isn't blocked etc... have you pulled the ECU connector and started measuring the resistance between the various pins for the components of the FI? It's possible that a component in the there, or a connection to it, could have failed.

A

[azruss]

the switching the wires on the relay may be part of the issue. You may have a reverse ground issue. If you switched a power side and a control side wire, you will never get the rest right. Get that straightened out first.

[LISpider]

P

I do not hear the fuel pump engaging. I have checked the spark, grounds, fuses, the AFM flap, the fuel pump and the dual relay. All check out, but I cannot get the car to start.

Not sure I understand where you are in your troubleshooting. The fuel pump does not work when the key is turned but it works when you jump it directly...is this correct?

There is an in-line fuse in a separate holder that powers the fuel pump. Have you checked this fuse?

Disconnect the plug to the temp sensor in the coolant T at the front of the engine. Measure resistance across the 2 sensor electrodes. If it is infinite, this is probably your problem.

Pull off the fuel line to the Cold Start Valve. Check for good flow when the starter is engaged. Read pressure if you have a gage you can plug in, should be 38 -40 psi. Plugged filter? Bad pump?


thanks. i will give your reco's a shot. with regards to the fuel line to the csv...if the pump is not working, there will not be any fuel there??? the pump is new and i can get it to engage when i close the AFM flap with my hand.

Do thes steps. If the car still doesn't start then come back for more troubleshooting help.

[wizard124]

The line to the csv runs off the same fuel rail as the injectors. You want fuel in that line which lends it to checking fuel pressure and flow.

Do you have a pressure gage? Then connect it at the end which normally plugs into the csv. Be AWARE, there will be fuel under pressure as you disconnect that end (or should be). The correct method to relieve this pressure is to take a vacuum pump, connect it to the vacuum line running from the top of the pressure regulator. Pumping vacuum on this line tells the PR to open and send fuel back to the tank via the return line. The PR is that round thing connected in the middle of the fuel rail. There will still be some fuel spilled regardless.

Assuming you have connected a gage to the fuel line. Then disconnect the coil wire; you want it to run but not while you are running tests Hit the starter, the pump should run and you will see the fuel pressure spike. When you release the starter, the pressure should hold at 35psi. If you don't see any pressure then the pump isn't running or the line is completely blocked. Work the problem. If the pressure spikes to 38-40 psi (my results) then doesn't hold at 35psi, then my manual says to replace the PR. Last test you should do is disconnect the gage and pump fuel into a container while someone else cranks the starter. The flow is substantial; the manual says 1.5 to 2 ltrs per minute. If you have pressure but not flow then change the filter.

The Fiat FI Diagnosis Manual lists this to do for a crank/ no run condition:
1) Check ignition for spark;
2) Check for leaks in the Intake Air System;
3) Check fuel feed pressure as summarized above;
4) Check Voltage at Injectors.
5) Check Coolant Temperature sensor resistance. 2100 to 2900 ohms at 68F. Easiest at the sensor but book says ECU connector terminal #13 and chassis ground. If 0 ohms or less than spec, replace sensor. If infinite (at #13 ), check for breaks in the wires. If wires are good, replace sensor.
6) Check Thermo Time Switch;
7) Check CSV;
Note: 6 and 7 could be your issue if engine is flooded causing no start. Simple to pinch off fuel line to CSV to eliminate this cause. Pull plug to check condition.

If the first 3 steps all check good, leading you to the Injectors' Voltage diagnosis, you will need a good multi-meter. The troubleshooting becomes more complicated. If you can't find this diagnosis steps on-line, I can take you through it but having a print out and pictures would be to your benefit. Easier to check and fix step 5 and eliminate that as your problem and then come back to 4 IMO.
Stick with it!
Warren

[aj81spider]

Do you have the L-Jetronic Troubleshooting Maintenance and Repair manual? If not PM me and I'll send you a .pdf version. I'm traveling tomorrow so I won't be able to send it until Saturday.

[paintdudeluke]

the switching the wires on the relay may be part of the issue. You may have a reverse ground issue. If you switched a power side and a control side wire, you will never get the rest right. Get that straightened out first.

My thought was the relay too.

If you can hotwire the fuel pump and the car will run, then the problem is power to the fuel pump. The entire concept of diagnostics is the PROCESS of elimination. Be sure of one thing after another, check off the list and eventually you are left with the "broken link". SPARK FUEL COMPRESSION. Something is missing.

If you hotwire the fuel pump and it still does not run, thats not the issue.