79 2000 Carb/Intake Manifold Swap (to 78 1.8L)

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FiatBen

79 2000 Carb/Intake Manifold Swap (to 78 1.8L)

Post by FiatBen »

Been off the forum for awhile. Life seems to do that. But, I'm back!

October 2012 I bought a '79 Spider 2000, cream colored, automatic. It had known issues, and I knew it would have unknown issues (it IS a Fiat), but the price was right and I got to pay it out over a few months. I have a daughter who never learned to shift but loves the cars, so the idea was to get this and fix it up for her.
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Fast forward 1-1/2 years (unbelievable). So far the only issues that have been addressed were a completely shot steering gear box (replaced with used '82 unit last September) and two tires that were showing through to the cords (replace August last year). I did mount it on jackstands and power wash everything I could reach last year so things are a bit cleaner, especially when I have to crawl under it.

The biggest issue, after the 5 inches of play in the steering wheel, is that the car runs poorly. Previous owner, a mechanic no less, said they had rebuilt the carb but could never get a balance between idling well and running smoothly. Long story short, I am going to replace the original ADHA carb and dual plane intake manifold with a set-up from a '78. My understanding, from both Brad's excellent documentation on carbs and chatting with the fellows on Mirafiori, is that this will give me a bit of boost in horsepower, eliminate almost all emissions control crap, and make my life simpler.
Here is the setup as bought:
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So, my whole point to all that is that I intend to document this adventure (first time to do anything this complicated for me) and help others avoid all the mistakes I am sure to make. And in the beginning, just to ask questions about things I don't know about. I know I could research and find my own answers, but you guys are so knowledgeable and helpful and I know that the few seconds it will take for you to enlighten me will save me hours of searching for answers. Forums ROCK!

First, I want to learn a couple of things:
1. At the front of the carb is this big actuator. Under it is a hose that runs to a little device on the sidewall. There is what appears to be a vacuum connection going nowhere. I suspect this may have been to the charcoal cannister, which is long since gone. If so, then my question becomes whether I can use this with the '78 intake/carb setup and use an old cannister (I have parts cars)?
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And then there was this funky little manifold thingy at the back of the intake manifold:
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At first I thought it was a vacuum distribution method, but I'm pretty sure there are water lines running to it. Someone want to enlighten me? Just curious, because it is now in the floor and won't be needed with the '78 setup as I understand things at this point.

Several connections on the carb weren't connected to anything. When I pulled the carb today I was surprised to see this:
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It appears the previous owner deliberately took the middle out of the gasket. I could go ask him, but I'm not sure I want to know his version of why? Any theories?

Well, thanks in advance. Hopefully this will go better than trying to get my '69 to run again after 15 years idle.
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bradartigue
Posts: 2183
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 2:35 pm
Your car is a: 1970 Sport Spider
Location: Atlanta, GA

Re: 79 2000 Carb/Intake Manifold Swap (to 78 1.8L)

Post by bradartigue »

A mechanic who can't tune a Weber isn't a mechanic, he's just a guy who can change oil or tires.

Installing the 1800 manifold on the 2L head is a great move. Per your questions, EVERYTHING connected to the manifold except for the brake booster can be removed. This includes the EGR plumbing, the high idle actuator, the various sensor connectors, etc. It all goes. Fortunately this is quite easy because once you unplug the brake booster line you just pull the manifold off and take everything with it.

If you leave the 2000 carbureted head in place then you'll have an open hole in front of the #1 intake port that runs into the exhaust. There is a 1/2" or so diameter pipe from this hole on the exhaust side to the exhaust manifold. The pipe needs to be removed and the hole on the exhaust collector removed. The hole through the head need not be plugged, it goes straight through, from nothing to nothing now that the pipe and manifold are gone.
FiatBen

Re: 79 2000 Carb/Intake Manifold Swap (to 78 1.8L)

Post by FiatBen »

Thanks Brad, I appreciate the reassurance on this track I'm on.

I had considered just a total head swap since I have the head off my '78 (block froze up). Then I got to thinking about timing issues, etc. Besides, now I actually have the intake manifold off. A couple of those bolts were rather difficult to get to. Hopefully, tightening them back up will go smoother.

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While taking things off, I noticed this hose (EGR?) is damaged. My problem that started this is that the car would not run well, especially at idle. Actually was dying at idle when i started last week on this. The car is an automatic and would tend to die while engaged and stopped. Besides, I'm all for a simpler, better setup.

Image

Obviously this will get replaced. My question this morning is what other things should i do while I'm here, such as cleaning out the flame trap, etc.? Any suggestions, guys?
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bradartigue
Posts: 2183
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 2:35 pm
Your car is a: 1970 Sport Spider
Location: Atlanta, GA

Re: 79 2000 Carb/Intake Manifold Swap (to 78 1.8L)

Post by bradartigue »

1. Clean it. I'd buy about 3 cans of engine cleaner and let it work. Or degreaser like Purple Power or Simple Green. Something to get that crud off of the motor and maybe remove some of that blue paint.

2. In all it really doesn't look too bad. The hoses to and from the vapor separator are original, or at least the clamps, and you should consider replacing them and using good clamps on them.

3. The 1800 head won't cause timing issues at all, and you can use the 2000cc belt. It's a cleaner installation, but you'll need the head gasket, etc. It may be worthwhile since you have this stuff out to go ahead and replace it now, but that's really up to you - many cars suffer from the "while I'm in there" instead of just finishing the one job and being done.

Oh that cut carb space was someone trying to get more fuel from the carb to both planes; it's a futile thing to try as the fuel is rushing past their so fast that it isn't going to make a 90 degree turn in two directions over the space of a few mm. If anything with that manifold this made things worse. You either learn to tune and use the dual-plane / vacuum carbs or you ditch them. I don't think they are particular horrible brand new, but most of the parts that make them work aren't available and haven't been for years, so there is no point in using them. They're all sloppy as can be now.
FiatBen

Re: 79 2000 Carb/Intake Manifold Swap (to 78 1.8L)

Post by FiatBen »

Hey Brad, thanks. So I'm hearing the blue paint on the block isn't original? (HAHA) What I do know about the car is that the engine was replaced after the original owner tried to crush a parking lot curb with the oil pan. He supposedly went to great pains to replace it with one from the same year.

Originally I had planned to just drop the head from a '78 that the block froze up on while sitting in storage.

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Sometimes I overthink one thing and totally forget other things I've learned. I guess it wouldn't be that difficult since the cam towers have their own alignment marks. Now I'm trying to remember if that would mean loosening up the exhaust manifold and how rusted/fried those bolts might be.
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The good news is that it has the 4-2-1 exhaust and no catalytic converter.

I'd go out to the garage and look right now, but it's almost 1AM and 6:30 is going to come early!!
FiatBen

Re: 79 2000 Carb/Intake Manifold Swap (to 78 1.8L)

Post by FiatBen »

I am at the beginning of huge learning curve when it comes to carburetors. But in the past few years I've had to do so many things mechanically (for lack of money) that I'm thinking learning to rebuild a carb might be "fun."

I went out to the barn and dug around for carb bodies and brought them into the garage so I could see what I had as a starting point (while still trying to sort through all the opinions on the best upgrades for this poor anemic '79).

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These are (numbers pulled from the stamping in the base):
DHSA2 1M
DHSA3 3D
DHSA2 OM
32ADFA1 100
32ADFA2 100
32ADFA 11 100
32ADFA 11 102
Holley 0593 (I don't know where this came from, or why I have it)
28/32 ADHA 8/180 9H in pieces
and the one I just took off the car, which was supposedly rebuilt but never ran right

I left the ones in the boxes marked '69 in the barn.

And there's the complete 1800 head from the '78.

Anyone have any good links, books, videos, etc. on how to rebuild carbs?
FiatBen

Re: 79 2000 Carb/Intake Manifold Swap (to 78 1.8L)

Post by FiatBen »

Got to thinking about this project and went out to the barn and pulled the '78's intake/carb off the head:
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A can of spray carb cleaner later:
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It needs some work but the linkage is free and it was working when pulled (several years ago). Obviously the choke's diaphragm and maybe the solenoid.
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At this time I'm considering fixing the choke, scraping the gasket off and slapping it in and seeing if she runs.

Comments? (Always welcomed, even the flaming ones).
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MrJD
Posts: 551
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 1:23 pm
Your car is a: Looking to ask questions about a 79 2.0
Location: Laurinburg NC

Re: 79 2000 Carb/Intake Manifold Swap (to 78 1.8L)

Post by MrJD »

carb rebuild kits are super cheap. Brad has all the diagrams you will ever need to do the rebuild.

Personally, I'd start with a decent carb though.

http://www.fiatspider.com/f08/viewtopic ... 17&t=26123
FiatBen

Re: 79 2000 Carb/Intake Manifold Swap (to 78 1.8L)

Post by FiatBen »

I've actually got two NOS kits in my stuff. My anxiety arises from having never done a carb rebuild before. I'm sure I can take one apart. Putting it back together (correctly) might be another story.
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bradartigue
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Your car is a: 1970 Sport Spider
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Re: 79 2000 Carb/Intake Manifold Swap (to 78 1.8L)

Post by bradartigue »

FiatBen wrote:I've actually got two NOS kits in my stuff. My anxiety arises from having never done a carb rebuild before. I'm sure I can take one apart. Putting it back together (correctly) might be another story.
Don't do a full rebuild - just clean the hell out of the thing with carb cleaner. Remove a jet, clean the hole it came from, put it back, go to the next one, etc. Spray the stuff in every hole in that carburetor.

Then remove the lid and clean everything in there, spray it all out. Replace the gasket. Remove the accelerator pump, clean it all up, replace the gasket. Then let it sit for a day to dry out, spray the linkages with WD-40, install it and run.

If it runs nasty then consider rebuilding it, but most things clean up nicely doing the above.
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bradartigue
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Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 2:35 pm
Your car is a: 1970 Sport Spider
Location: Atlanta, GA

Re: 79 2000 Carb/Intake Manifold Swap (to 78 1.8L)

Post by bradartigue »

oh and cap air leaks / huge holes.
FiatBen

Re: 79 2000 Carb/Intake Manifold Swap (to 78 1.8L)

Post by FiatBen »

bradartigue wrote:If you leave the 2000 carbureted head in place then you'll have an open hole in front of the #1 intake port that runs into the exhaust. There is a 1/2" or so diameter pipe from this hole on the exhaust side to the exhaust manifold. The pipe needs to be removed and the hole on the exhaust collector removed. The hole through the head need not be plugged, it goes straight through, from nothing to nothing now that the pipe and manifold are gone.
So, let me see if I have this right. This is the pipe we're talking about:
Image

If so, do I remove it and plug the exhaust manifold. Or is this the thing people put a plate between it and the block to seal it off? Is either preferrable. If plugging, what size of plug?
bbuckl
Posts: 61
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:20 pm
Your car is a: 1979 Spider 2000
Location: New Fairfield, CT

Re: 79 2000 Carb/Intake Manifold Swap (to 78 1.8L)

Post by bbuckl »

As much as I tried, I couldn't get the pipe to come loose from the manifold so I cut the pipe with a cutting wheel, found a bolt laying around the shop that would fit snugly and then JB welded it into place to seal it all up.
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bradartigue
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Your car is a: 1970 Sport Spider
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Re: 79 2000 Carb/Intake Manifold Swap (to 78 1.8L)

Post by bradartigue »

FiatBen wrote:
bradartigue wrote:If you leave the 2000 carbureted head in place then you'll have an open hole in front of the #1 intake port that runs into the exhaust. There is a 1/2" or so diameter pipe from this hole on the exhaust side to the exhaust manifold. The pipe needs to be removed and the hole on the exhaust collector removed. The hole through the head need not be plugged, it goes straight through, from nothing to nothing now that the pipe and manifold are gone.
So, let me see if I have this right. This is the pipe we're talking about:
<pictures removed>
If so, do I remove it and plug the exhaust manifold. Or is this the thing people put a plate between it and the block to seal it off? Is either preferrable. If plugging, what size of plug?
Yes that's the one. I don't know why it says "Thermostatic Idle Actuator" except as a joke, it's just an EGR tube. Cut it. put a bolt in it, JB weld it. The bolt thing that holds camcovers down fits perfectly in that pipe. I cut it about 2" from the exhaust collector and plug it up. You don't need to seal it on the head side because it just goes straight through. Of course if you use the original manifold you'll have to plug it, but don't use the original intake manifold.
FiatBen

Re: 79 2000 Carb/Intake Manifold Swap (to 78 1.8L)

Post by FiatBen »

I realize that sometimes part of the problems are things done by the previous owners. Not that I'm saying this is the case, but I'm puzzling something out.
The original '79 manifold has this little mini manifold on the backend of it:
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I thought this was a vacuum distribution system, but it isn't. You see that hose in the back left corner? When I pulled it, I got water (antifreeze). I traced it back, and sure enough it is tee'd into the heater hose. And there is a short hose that connects from the water jacket on the manifold (the connection to the water jacket on the choke on the earlier models) to this same mini-manifold. And I have no idea now where the two hoses on the right went off to, but I'm guessing I didn't bother to photograph/remember because they went to the ADHA carb or emissions stuff that is going away.

Anyway, so I have these two lines I'm not sure what to do with. The first (the lower one with the paper tag in the following picture) is the one that tees into the heater hose. The second looks like a vacuum line. It crosses the engine and then runs into the tranny tunnel. I don't have a picture showing it hooked up before I took it off, but it seems like it was connected to the '79 carb (ADHA). I'm guessing I can eliminate the water line and remove the connection to the heater piping.
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Is there a vacuum line to the tranny? Is this is? What does it do? Hmmm, as I'm looking at the first picture, I think that is the line connected to the manifold with the other half of the "tee" capped off.

I'm going to try to post my questions in individual posts because some of them have gotten lost because of too many at once I suppose.

Does anyone have good pictures of a completed version of this project so I can see what I'm going for?
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